It's not so much about how intolerant they are to change. It's more that the better a character did in Melee, the less change they underwent, generally. Remember, this game was made for competitive smash players, but the game it's based on is Melee, so we brought back what worked in competitive Melee and went from there.
I really feel that there's a gross misunderstanding here on that whole "what worked in Melee", which kinda surprises me considering you guys have been working on nothing but that for years now. What worked in Melee were its mechanics, the effective and coherent movesets, stuff like that. The things that you've already understood and applied to other fighters. That's what made Falco good, not the fact he's a boring copy-paste of Fox.
You can't just say "well, that worked, so no use fixing what isn't broken", that's just not how game design works. Game design is not finding the optimal setup and then sticking with it, that's Math. It's about finding different optimals every time, which is something that's been done rather successfully on Toon Link, or even Samus. There was no need to add the Ice Beam, for instance. But you did it anyway instead of just, y'know, tweaking a few numbers to balance Samus out and call it a day.
Not to mention, you really can't say Melee Falco "worked" either. He was a generic Fox clone. That's not "working" in my book.
Is there any point for a casual player to play the Melee tops in Project M? If you look at the character in a vacuum, no, not really. However, the Melee tops finally have an entire viable cast of characters they now have to fend off and learn how to fight, which may not be as exciting as having new moves, but you can't really say that you might as well just play Melee. It's the same character, but it's a very new game.
I've seen that brought forward on the website too, and I still can't help but feel this is incredibly flawed. Putting the same characters in a different situation isn't changing the characters in any way, just as adding new DLC levels doesn't suddenly make a new game, especially if those levels don't bring foward new mechanics. In a nutshell, it's still the same Fox and Falco and Captain Falcon I'm playing. And in the frequent occurence where you'd have a match with two of the Melee top tiers, lo and behold, it's not a "very new game" anymore at all.
That way, there's something for everyone, which is what we thought Sakurai forgot about Brawl. He deliberately took away things that competitive players want. Instead, we're choosing to cater to both audiences, but that will certainly mean that not every decision pleases each camp.
But there's not something for everyone, that's the main problem. You've tuned all the regular characters to be tournament-friendly AND casual-friendly, but completely left out the second part for Melee top tiers. Pragmatically speaking, you're alienating a major part of your audience (target or not, I don't really care) from a decent portion of your cast. That's the exact opposite of "for everyone".
On those characters, you're deliberately taking away things that casual players wanted (variety, personnality), and catering those players to the rest of the cast. In a way, that isn't all that much better than Sakurai did when he catered tournament-players towards playing only Metaknight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy and such.
When I first heard those announcer calls, I thought they sounded a bit off. Now that I know where they come from, I'm surprised they didn't end up even worse.
And while a bit of distinction wouldn't hurt, without the proper recording equipment and know-how, they might might as well invest their time and money on things they have the means to make more distinctive.
For instance, I didn't think someone could make Falco more generic and insipid than the SSBB devs, but it looks like I was dead wrong. I don't care if you have a maniac tournament Falco player holding a knife to your throat, but I want you to fire whoever did all those lazy copy-paste Melee movesets and replace them with the guys who came up with actually creative ideas to de-clone Toon Link, Wolf and Lucario. Honestly, I had fun playing with those, experimenting with their new stuff and the rest of the cast that recieved changes. But then I come to the top tier guys and all I can read is "return to their former glory", "restoration", "replica", "remade to match Melee".
You're giving both tournament AND non-tournament players reasons to play most of your characters over their Brawl/Melee equivalents. Why stop applying that constructive logic whenever you get closer to the Melee top tiers. Are Fox/Falco players notably more intolerant to change than Samus/Ganondorf players?
tl;dr: Is there any point for me, "casual" player, to play any of the copy-paste characters that I've already played for more than 7 years?
I want to ask something. Sense Project M 3.0 is out and Roy and Mewtwo are two new folder slots in the SD card. Would it be a good idea to add 2 new sections to the vault? So if anyone wanted to make someone over them, they could upload it or should we just use Marth's slot as Roy's and Lucario's Slot as Mewtwo's?
I ask this because of this hack right here.
No, we're not going to add slots for every additional slot characters that users can think of. Nor every single edited bonesets.
Wow, I can't believe some of you people can be such an ass to the man who got the clone engine working in the first place, much disrespect
Hey, sometimes it's surprisingly productive to be an ass to people. If we had been nice and taken down the codes in the first place, we would have missed a whole lot of very enlightening conversations on modules, clonings, and the PMBR. Not to mention Dantarion's rather instructive stream.
Unless it's just waiting for the T-shirts to finish selling. Once the DL link is dropped, people will be more busy playing the mod than buying the shirts.
Thus, I make the prediction that it won't be released until the next 3 hours have passed.
Edit: Oh dear, the random reaction images are already there?
Congratulations. That took two pages, didn't even require BV Staff intervention, and could have been easily resolved if the conversaion had simply continued by PM.
PS: No need to both credit AND collab Omega. One is enough.
No need for unnecessary slapping. i don't like Project:M. but they have tons more support and will use this more effectively and make it super user friendly.
Project M's CE is a fixed engine that only works for replacing specific characters. ASF's creation does exactly the same thing. The difficult part is to create your own custom roster in both cases. Setting up a pre-made roster is tough, but still doable by users with a bit of practice.
The difference is, I'm pretty sure Dantarion didn't mention anything about creating your own roster, and I doubt the PMBR will release a pre-made roster until way after the P:M 3.0 hype is over.
as for the 503 thing, this is happening right before PM3.0's release. im not saying someone is after brawl hacking sites, but just in case something difficult were to come up on PM3.0's release day, I'm requesting that there be alternate dropbox/mediafire links on youtube. we cant have one of the biggest days in brawl modding be corrupted with website issues.
sorry if I sound like a paranoid maniac, but a lot of people I know, who mod their games as well, have been looking forward to this update. and that's only a handful of people. thousands of other modders have had this on their list for the longest of times.
That is something you should ask the PMBR, not us. If we're going to set up a mirror link for every project out there, might as well make it a full-time job.
And I'll be honest, I'm pretty sure there have been some bigger days in Brawl modding. Unless there is something in the P:M package which somehow helps to make the whole modding community improve.
Okay, so website goes down for a few days, finally comes back up and I find that a little kid is spamming the report system....are we sure we can't just ban his account for this? BLABLABLABLA
not that i support this knob in any way, but i did laugh a bit on the Hitler one. but that still doesnt mean he should do that. abuse of a given BV right is not something that should be permitted. only in my personal opinion do i believe he should have his account suspended, but idk if thats too rash or not.
Yeah, normally, you don't issue punishments like Warns and such for BV-related issues. But in this case, it is pretty obvious the guy was here for nothing but causing trouble.
I've removed his BV Reporting rights, and issued a 2-month ban to let him chill.
Now how come the Forum Rules don't apply to the Vault?
I find it silly, because someone can virtually get away with breaking a Forum Rule in an invalid BV report.
Ex: If I were to make a report of a mod I found to be low quality with my sarcastic attitude, then it would simply get removed. If I were to do it multiple times, then I'd just get my BV Reporting privileges taken away.
Though I bet the Admins(?) have their reasons for this...
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