Metal Gear Solid Needs More Hack Representation!

[Bent 00]

I just got finished testing Eternal Yoshi's salute animation. First of all, I just want to say how much I appreciate the help of everyone here. It's so great to see this project start to come to fruition!

...Er, yeah. Eternal Yoshi, GREAT job on the salute. There's only a few tiny quirks you might want to address:

- Snake's left leg twitches just a bit during the turn to salute.
- Snake's right leg might benefit from being slowed down slightly, so his foot lands in time with his salute.
- Snake's right elbow and wrist become a bit distorted as he salutes (but you only notice if you look from above or behind)

- Snake's knees might be bent a bit much during the salute.

Lastly, after playing a few matches and taunting often, I think that it would be better if the last part of the taunt (turning back to facing sideways) was a bit faster. Or perhaps you could make it cancelable in the last stage(s). I often found myself jamming the control stick to move, waiting for the taunt to finish.

IMO, the speed of the first half of the taunt feels right - it's the second half that seems to drag slightly.

I could make a pretty good salute animation 1 2 3.
If you want I'll start on it tonight.

And maybe a smoking one too.
Or whatever.

Eternal Yoshi's salute is looking really good, but it's up to you.

The smoking and moving box taunts are going to be harder. It would be great if you could attempt animating either of those.

EDIT: Aww, all of the brawlsnapshots.com pics turned into spam...

[JOEYSX5]

The smoking and moving box taunts are going to be harder. It would be great if you could attempt animating either of those.

Smoking: I have a texture for it, sadly it's not ripped from MGS:TTS, because I couldn't find it in the items section. So, I used a picture of a real Cigaratte. I know I know, I like to make simple textures, but this would save some time for somone working on it.

If we could just port one of the Brawl items (Maybe Cracker laucher) over somthing then vertex it to be really small, vertex alot of stuff off and make it really simple model (A simple tube). If Eternal Yoshi can vertex an arm gun on Gray Fox for his neutral B, it's possible.

This texture here should help if somone is working on the cigs.
http://www.mediafire.com/?7h8zgvy7x02mgcq

I would like somone to use this and become successful. Can't wait!

EDIT: Ok! I just added a Cig model! I used the Cracker Luancher model.





*Note both pictures were taken when I removed the certain Polygons that added the rest of the model! Look at BrawlBox previews and remove the blue model part to a tube. Of course, this needs to be resized to be about the size of Snake's finger.

Yup, it looks awesome. All I did was use the Cig textures Friedslick6 sent me! I fused the other half of the cigaratte since it was blue, and I added a flame to look cooler. Feel free to use this for Snake's cigaratte taunt.

Download Model:
http://www.mediafire.com/?d7pkbpj4zstj2qj

Download MGS:TTS Ripped Cig textures:
http://www.mediafire.com/?b0v7hlls0e5b536

[irishladdie727]

The smoking and moving box taunts are going to be harder. It would be great if you could attempt animating either of those.

Smoking: I have a texture for it, sadly it's not ripped from MGS:TTS, because I couldn't find it in the items section. So, I used a picture of a real Cigaratte. I know I know, I like to make simple textures, but this would save some time for somone working on it.

If we could just port one of the Brawl items (Maybe Cracker laucher) over somthing then vertex it to be really small, vertex alot of stuff off and make it really simple model (A simple tube). If Eternal Yoshi can vertex an arm gun on Gray Fox for his neutral B, it's possible.

This texture here should help if somone is working on the cigs.
http://www.mediafire.com/?7h8zgvy7x02mgcq

I would like somone to use this and become successful. Can't wait!

If we can theoretically get rid of the boxes for indivdual directions of the taunt, do you think maybe we can port over them for individual directions too?  In this case we should replace the box with the cigarette.  And I'm sure there's better geometry to vertex than the cracker launcher, I'll look around the ISO files for something tube like.  Remember we've got hundreds of trophies too. 

Also, if you CAN port over individual directions for the box, then people who want to keep the box could theoretically have three different kinds of boxes.  That would be pretty cool too.

[LC-DDM]

I think Gerudo Prince had a different side animation if you moved left, so... I think it's possible.

Probably based on inner code though.

[JOEYSX5]

Guys looks at the update, I made a model over Cracker Launcher, just needs some vertexing.

[Bent 00]

If we're aiming for these new taunts to be adopted by the likes of Brawl+, then we should not sacrifice any of the items for a tiny cigarette - it would be better to just have an invisible cigarette, and just animate the visual effects (orange glow & smoke/dust). As SHeLL mentioned earlier, you wouldn't be able to see it unless you zoomed in anyway:

A cigarette would be too small to see unless you're zoomed in. It's really about the silhouette, which would be just fine with or without a cigarette. Add a red glow and some smoke (read: dust) GFX and it would look pretty good, imo.

Besides that, SHeLL told me that giving Snake an actual cigarette item would require sacrificing one of Snake's articles, like the box - not just any regular item. We don't want to do that.

Vertex a cigarette onto his hand just for the duration of the taunt? No.

Where would that come from? You can adjust bone translations and rotations mid animation but you cannot do a single animation vertex change as the model is loaded once when you select the CSS icon. If you want a cigarette you have to sacrifice one of his other articles to do so.

The only other thing we could do for a visible cigarette is have it vertexed into Snake's mouth, but then it would be visible at all times... And there wouldn't be much for Snake to do during the actual Smoking taunt, since he couldn't remove it from his mouth... Yeah, never mind that. >_>

The best animation I can think of for Smoking at the moment is Snake quickly pulling out an invisible cigarette from an ammo pouch, smoking it for a second (with the orange glow & smoke/dust visual effects), and then either making a "putting the cigarette back into the pouch" motion or a "discarding" motion.

Ok, we won't be sacrificing items!  We are just adding a model! Well, as you can see, check my updated post. It's not an item - It could be replaced by somthing that we don't need with my new model.

All we could do is port the model I made (After vertexing, of course) into FitSnakeMotionEtc, I dunno, but somone vertex it first and resize it, THEN import it into FitMotion.

Is that possible? SHeLL said that we would have to replace one of Snake's articles in order to give him a visible cigarette. However, I don't know what articles Snake has that can be replaced, besides the box... Does anyone else here know?

I thought that you couldn't just add animate-able items in places they don't already exist, only replace existing ones.

If we can theoretically get rid of the boxes for indivdual directions of the taunt, do you think maybe we can port over them for individual directions too?  In this case we should replace the box with the cigarette.  And I'm sure there's better geometry to vertex than the cracker launcher, I'll look around the ISO files for something tube like.  Remember we've got hundreds of trophies too. 

Also, if you CAN port over individual directions for the box, then people who want to keep the box could theoretically have three different kinds of boxes.  That would be pretty cool too.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that the three box taunts each draw their box article from the same place, meaning you can only have one box at a time.

[Eternal Yoshi]

An update. This one completely restores the box function for down taunt and I have the cloaking device as his side taunt.

http://www.mediafire.com/?uzbugzk7z2apbuw

List of things that will make him visible
1. Getting hit
2. Getting grabbed
3. Shielding(No point in being Sneaky when everyone can see a big bubble)
4.. Ledge Geabbing

[Friedslick6]

So, does the invisibility effect create true invisibility, light-wrap invisibility or something else? Because perhaps true invisibility would give too much of an advantage in large stages... Also, would it be possible to apply the different taunts seperately if we didn't like a certain one or two? Hypothetically, of course. I think the work done here is going well.

[Dars]

An update. This one completely restores the box function for down taunt and I have the cloaking device as his side taunt.

http://www.mediafire.com/?uzbugzk7z2apbuw

List of things that will make him visible
1. Getting hit
2. Getting grabbed
3. Shielding(No point in being Sneaky when everyone can see a big bubble)
4.. Ledge Geabbing

I'm digging these new taunts.
But could you upload a version of this that doesn't include your custom item skins for Snake? Having a candy stripe mortar launcher isn't very suiting.

[Bent 00]

Several new posts over at the smashboards thread:

---

I've been testing your taunt pack for the last few hours, Eternal Yoshi.

Note: Eternal Yoshi, I've highlighted some important bits in green, just so they will stand out from all the rest of the text.

The Salute

The Salute is pretty much perfect now. Snake's legs are still rather bent when he salutes, but that's fine. Excellent work on this one! I had hoped for it to be on down taunt, and the box to be on up taunt... But I'll get used to it.

The Cloaking Device

Wow, that was fun just to play around with. XD I agree with Snake becoming visible when he is hit or grabbed (obviously), but I think it's worth considering letting him stay invisible when he shields or grabs a ledge. I noticed a few things when testing out this taunt:

- Upon using the Cloaking Device taunt, Snake becomes completely invisible. I mean perfect invisibility. If the camera is not close up on Snake, you will see the P1/name tag floating above him, so Snake can not hide in big levels. However, it's going to be hard to predict what Snake's doing when you're fighting him up close, since you can't see him at all... Hopefully this won't be broken, though, since it only takes one successful hit or a grab to reveal Snake, and shielding currently makes him visible too.

- Grenades, the Cypher, the box, the mortar, and land mines are also invisible until Snake loses contact with them. The Nikita is the only exception - it appears to float in midair. o_o

- Unfortunately, no fancy Grenade techniques while you're invisible - if you drop a Grenade by shielding or grabbing, you instantly become visible. I'd love a fix for this if possible, since I love using Grenade techs. I wonder if making it so that shielding doesn't make snake visible would work as a fix?

- Snake will also become visible if you try to roll or spot dodge, and you hold down the L, R, or Z button too long. You'll only stay invisible if you tap a direction and one of those buttons really fast. I'm guessing that this could also be fixed by making it so that shielding does not reveal Snake.

The only other thing I have to say about the Cloaking Device taunt for now is that it might benefit from having the last half of the animation (Snake bowing to the ground) cut, and having the first half (Snake crouching on one knee) lengthened a bit. While it looks cool (Snake seems to fade into the ground), I'm thinking it doesn't make sense for Snake to bow all the way down like that. Besides that, it's a carbon copy of Snake's entrance animation as is.

Oh, and it's kinda annoying how Snake will say "Kept you waiting, huh?" every few times he cloaks. I'd recommend removing that line from the taunt, or perhaps replacing it with "Not even close", one of his victory voice effects (#30 in Sound Test).

This is going to be an awesome taunt. Bionic knew it from the beginning, lol. Too bad it overshadows the Smoking taunt, though... Let's get some feedback and find out which one the majority wants as the new side taunt. I'm guessing the Cloaking Device, as long as it doesn't turn out to be broken (it doesn't feel broken to me, but I've yet to try it against a human opponent).

The Box

I see you've got the box back for down taunt, and isn't that the old up taunt box entry animation? The only odd thing I encountered testing this was this: Whenever you use the down taunt, if you don't input anything else, Snake will loop his box exit animation over and over until you do something.

Eternal Yoshi, you didn't mention a reason for putting the (moving) box on down taunt... I'm just curious about this.

---

Next up, Terminator:

Here's those pics I promised!

And about your MGS tTS Snake texture - Can you fix these few see-through spots? There are two around the straps in front, one on Snake's back near his right arm, and one where his neck meets his collar. Also, could you remove those blue triangles if they're not supposed to be there?

---

I fixed the looping.

Same download link as last time, or do you have a new one?

---

For those of us who frequent tourneys/play mostly play VBrawl (no gameplay changing hacks, except maybe no tripping if I'm not at a tourney) will it be possible to get the cloaking device taunt, without Snake staying invisible after the taunt? If he stays invisible it compromises having no gameplay changing hacks at tournies.

That's most likely possible, but it defeats the purpose of the Cloaking Device taunt. See my next comment below...

I think it's fine that he does go invisible for a short while during the taunt animation, but I think it would good if there was a version that didn't stay invisible for the vBrawlers. If this isn't possible I could try the possibilty of waiting for the cig taunt and replace the cloaking taunt with that.

Yeah, I'd just wait for the cigarette taunt to be released, and use that instead, if you want to keep Snake as vanilla as possible. While the Cloaking Device is fun, players of vBrawl and even Balanced Brawl might not want to use it for the same reason you gave.

Also, if the cig taunt finally does happen, there should be a vBrawl version of that too. I remember reading the idea of adding a hitbox onto it when he would discard it, that would also compromise the no gamplay changing thing for me.

Speaking of that, I don't think you have to worry about the cigarette having a hitbox like the box does. As it stands, we can't give Snake a visible cigarette without sacrificing one of his other articles (like the box). That means the best we can do is have Snake smoke an invisible cigarette, but still have the orange glow and smoke/dust visual effects show up. As SHeLL said, you wouldn't be able to see the cigarette unless you zoomed in, anyway.

That said, you can't really give an invisible cigarette a hitbox or trajectory. Well, you can, but not being able to see the actual cigarette pretty much ruins that idea IMO. So much for "Cig KOs". :/

The best plan for animating the Smoking taunt that I know of now is simply having Snake pull out the invisible cigarette from an ammo pouch, smoke it for a second (cue orange glow and smoke/dust), and then either make a "putting the cigarette back into the ammo pouch" animation or a "discarding/flicking away" animation. No hitbox or trajectory included.

And I noticed that with these new taunts that some of Snake's weaponry (mortar, cypher, landmine, grenade launcher) were textured, and was wondering how to change them back. I have some experience with BrawlBox.

I noticed that too. I don't know if Eternal Yoshi intended for those to be in there or not, lol.

But yeah, we'll certainly have a taunt pack with none of the specially colored equipment.

I'm sorry if I've sounded picky about these taunts myself, but I think should be vanilla versions so they can be more widely, so people don't have to worry about problems arising at tourney, or for people who just would want to play mostly vanilla brawl. You guys have done some great work in here, keep it up. <3

No problem at all, I appreciate your feedback. You made me realize that there is still going to be demand for the Smoking taunt over the Cloaking Device. Perhaps we can make two versions of the Snake Taunts pack:

Basic Pack (ideal for players of Vanilla Brawl and Balanced Brawl)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Smoking" as side taunt (invisible cigarette, no hitbox or trajectory)
- "Box" as down taunt (not the moving box we hope to make, just the standard one)

Stealth Pack (hopefully adopted by Brawl-, maybe Brawl+ players)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Cloaking Device" as side taunt (Snake becomes visible when hit or grabbed, possibly more triggers)
- "Moving Box" as down taunt (Hopefully, Snake will be able to move around in the box and even drop C4 or grenades silently)

Only the Salute and vanilla Box taunts are currently finished.

Any Brawl+ players here tried the Cloaking Device taunt yet? We could use your feedback regarding whether or not you think it's broken, or a good fit for Brawl+. If someone could test it out against human opponents, that would give us an idea how balanced or broken it is.

[irishladdie727]

Several new posts over at the smashboards thread:

---

I've been testing your taunt pack for the last few hours, Eternal Yoshi.

Note: Eternal Yoshi, I've highlighted some important bits in green, just so they will stand out from all the rest of the text.

The Salute

The Salute is pretty much perfect now. Snake's legs are still rather bent when he salutes, but that's fine. Excellent work on this one! I had hoped for it to be on down taunt, and the box to be on up taunt... But I'll get used to it.

The Cloaking Device

Wow, that was fun just to play around with. XD I agree with Snake becoming visible when he is hit or grabbed (obviously), but I think it's worth considering letting him stay invisible when he shields or grabs a ledge. I noticed a few things when testing out this taunt:

- Upon using the Cloaking Device taunt, Snake becomes completely invisible. I mean perfect invisibility. If the camera is not close up on Snake, you will see the P1/name tag floating above him, so Snake can not hide in big levels. However, it's going to be hard to predict what Snake's doing when you're fighting him up close, since you can't see him at all... Hopefully this won't be broken, though, since it only takes one successful hit or a grab to reveal Snake, and shielding currently makes him visible too.

- Grenades, the Cypher, the box, the mortar, and land mines are also invisible until Snake loses contact with them. The Nikita is the only exception - it appears to float in midair. o_o

- Unfortunately, no fancy Grenade techniques while you're invisible - if you drop a Grenade by shielding or grabbing, you instantly become visible. I'd love a fix for this if possible, since I love using Grenade techs. I wonder if making it so that shielding doesn't make snake visible would work as a fix?

- Snake will also become visible if you try to roll or spot dodge, and you hold down the L, R, or Z button too long. You'll only stay invisible if you tap a direction and one of those buttons really fast. I'm guessing that this could also be fixed by making it so that shielding does not reveal Snake.

The only other thing I have to say about the Cloaking Device taunt for now is that it might benefit from having the last half of the animation (Snake bowing to the ground) cut, and having the first half (Snake crouching on one knee) lengthened a bit. While it looks cool (Snake seems to fade into the ground), I'm thinking it doesn't make sense for Snake to bow all the way down like that. Besides that, it's a carbon copy of Snake's entrance animation as is.

Oh, and it's kinda annoying how Snake will say "Kept you waiting, huh?" every few times he cloaks. I'd recommend removing that line from the taunt, or perhaps replacing it with "Not even close", one of his victory voice effects (#30 in Sound Test).

This is going to be an awesome taunt. Bionic knew it from the beginning, lol. Too bad it overshadows the Smoking taunt, though... Let's get some feedback and find out which one the majority wants as the new side taunt. I'm guessing the Cloaking Device, as long as it doesn't turn out to be broken (it doesn't feel broken to me, but I've yet to try it against a human opponent).

The Box

I see you've got the box back for down taunt, and isn't that the old up taunt box entry animation? The only odd thing I encountered testing this was this: Whenever you use the down taunt, if you don't input anything else, Snake will loop his box exit animation over and over until you do something.

Eternal Yoshi, you didn't mention a reason for putting the (moving) box on down taunt... I'm just curious about this.

---

Next up, Terminator:

Here's those pics I promised!

And about your MGS tTS Snake texture - Can you fix these few see-through spots? There are two around the straps in front, one on Snake's back near his right arm, and one where his neck meets his collar. Also, could you remove those blue triangles if they're not supposed to be there?

---

I fixed the looping.

Same download link as last time, or do you have a new one?

---

For those of us who frequent tourneys/play mostly play VBrawl (no gameplay changing hacks, except maybe no tripping if I'm not at a tourney) will it be possible to get the cloaking device taunt, without Snake staying invisible after the taunt? If he stays invisible it compromises having no gameplay changing hacks at tournies.

That's most likely possible, but it defeats the purpose of the Cloaking Device taunt. See my next comment below...

I think it's fine that he does go invisible for a short while during the taunt animation, but I think it would good if there was a version that didn't stay invisible for the vBrawlers. If this isn't possible I could try the possibilty of waiting for the cig taunt and replace the cloaking taunt with that.

Yeah, I'd just wait for the cigarette taunt to be released, and use that instead, if you want to keep Snake as vanilla as possible. While the Cloaking Device is fun, players of vBrawl and even Balanced Brawl might not want to use it for the same reason you gave.

Also, if the cig taunt finally does happen, there should be a vBrawl version of that too. I remember reading the idea of adding a hitbox onto it when he would discard it, that would also compromise the no gamplay changing thing for me.

Speaking of that, I don't think you have to worry about the cigarette having a hitbox like the box does. As it stands, we can't give Snake a visible cigarette without sacrificing one of his other articles (like the box). That means the best we can do is have Snake smoke an invisible cigarette, but still have the orange glow and smoke/dust visual effects show up. As SHeLL said, you wouldn't be able to see the cigarette unless you zoomed in, anyway.

That said, you can't really give an invisible cigarette a hitbox or trajectory. Well, you can, but not being able to see the actual cigarette pretty much ruins that idea IMO. So much for "Cig KOs". :/

The best plan for animating the Smoking taunt that I know of now is simply having Snake pull out the invisible cigarette from an ammo pouch, smoke it for a second (cue orange glow and smoke/dust), and then either make a "putting the cigarette back into the ammo pouch" animation or a "discarding/flicking away" animation. No hitbox or trajectory included.

And I noticed that with these new taunts that some of Snake's weaponry (mortar, cypher, landmine, grenade launcher) were textured, and was wondering how to change them back. I have some experience with BrawlBox.

I noticed that too. I don't know if Eternal Yoshi intended for those to be in there or not, lol.

But yeah, we'll certainly have a taunt pack with none of the specially colored equipment.

I'm sorry if I've sounded picky about these taunts myself, but I think should be vanilla versions so they can be more widely, so people don't have to worry about problems arising at tourney, or for people who just would want to play mostly vanilla brawl. You guys have done some great work in here, keep it up. <3

No problem at all, I appreciate your feedback. You made me realize that there is still going to be demand for the Smoking taunt over the Cloaking Device. Perhaps we can make two versions of the Snake Taunts pack:

Basic Pack (ideal for players of Vanilla Brawl and Balanced Brawl)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Smoking" as side taunt (invisible cigarette, no hitbox or trajectory)
- "Box" as down taunt (not the moving box we hope to make, just the standard one)

Stealth Pack (hopefully adopted by Brawl-, maybe Brawl+ players)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Cloaking Device" as side taunt (Snake becomes visible when hit or grabbed, possibly more triggers)
- "Moving Box" as down taunt (Hopefully, Snake will be able to move around in the box and even drop C4 or grenades silently)

Only the Salute and vanilla Box taunts are currently finished.

Any Brawl+ players here tried the Cloaking Device taunt yet? We could use your feedback regarding whether or not you think it's broken, or a good fit for Brawl+. If someone could test it out against human opponents, that would give us an idea how balanced or broken it is.

If you haven't played Brawl +, the differences between it an vBrawl are only the kind that a pro or somebody paying attention would notice.  In other words, balance is just as fragile as it is in BBrawl and vBrawl.  Everybody is just a little bit quicker is the best way I can put it, it feels like Melee with Brawl techniques.  So yes, the cloaking device might be sort of OP.  The one EXTREMELY cheap implementation I thought of , camping and spamming Nikitas, doesn't work because the Nikita is still visible.  All in all I was kind of against this taunt because it's too much of a game changer for me, but it's still very cool, I just doubt any mods will adopt it officially because giving total invisibility to any character is game breaking, no matter how easy it is to make them visible again.  It's not that hard to avoid getting hit as Snake.  Also, I realize this is a little bit more work on our end, but why not just release the individual taunts separately and have the downloader pick and choose?  Or do they all have to be part of one file?

[Friedslick6]

Could someone please address my previous post in this thread?

[JOEYSX5]

Could someone please address my previous post in this thread?

Pretty sure, it's already been done.

[Friedslick6]

Oh right, I was just confused because I thought that post was just for EternalYoshi.
Nevermind.

[Bent 00]

From the smashboards thread:

Yeah, I have already fixed that annoying texture glitch, it's due to some texture of Snake's gloves getting mixed in with his back. No worries, I just texture the purple parts to the texture of his suit color ^_^
I haven't released it yet but I will soon. It also textured Snake's pistol and holster (and more) with textures Friedslick send me.

Oh, and Bent 00, thanks for the pics bro.

Let us know when you release the new pack. You're welcome for the pics!

As it would be funny, "Not even close" would be the easiest.

Agreed.

By the way, I've been trying to organize the best set of textures for Snake, with clear team colors and a variety of MGS representation in mind. Here's what I've picked so far:

00-Original --> MGS: tTS Snake
01-Red/Black --> MGS3 Russian Sneaking Suit Naked Snake with Zombie Facepaint (Red Team)
02-Green --> MGS3 Olive Drab Naked Snake with Splitter Facepaint (Green Team)
03-Blue --> Portable Ops Naked Snake (Blue Team)
04-White --> MGS4: GotP Old Snake (Pik's version)
05-Wild Feline --> MGS2: SoL Snake

If the Squares Camo turns out well, that might replace the MGS3 Russian Sneaking Suit, since it isn't very red.  And if the Iroquois Plisken model import goes well, that could replace either MGS3 Olive Drab or MGS2 Snake.

Here's some pictures:

Team colors:

^ I edited the red and blue bandannas to match team colors.

MGS: tTS, MGS2: SoL, and MGS4: GotP Snake:

PS1 MGS, MGS2: SoL, and MGS4: GotP Snake:

Lastly, here's another couple of reference pics for the Squares Camo:

http://junkerhq.net/MetalGear/MedicomSquares/Snake.jpg

http://junkerhq.net/MetalGear/MedicomSquares/CloseUp.jpg