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Author Topic: Yo KC. Some [censored]'s going down ITT  (Read 11400 times)
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    « on: February 27, 2011, 08:57:09 PM »


    Recently the quality of hacks and the attitude sorrounding them set by the precedent that the limitations are a legitimate excuse for said quality of them was brought up in a chat recently. While the way I worded it may have been harsh, I honestly feel I wouldn't have wanted to word it any other way despite who I may or may not have pissed off. (90% of character hacks? I exaggerated, it's much less)

    I wanna know if KCMM's general opinion agrees with them. Like I mention, we're able to appreciate hacks a lot more because we understand the limitations people have to deal with and the troublesome process it takes to achieve this. When brawl hacks are brought up on countless other sites, most of them bashed regardless. And in reality, it's not the creator's fault it "sucks:" the best of hacks here are made worse with normal problems. Any shape that's drastically different from the original (read: most good hacks!) look significantly more messy and low-poly.

        
    Just take a look at examples --


    (Nulled normals on the left, BY's most recent Zero edit) It's likely you've seen this before, but really look at the differences. His Helmet is the most straightforward change, and but if you look, his neck is a decent amount cleaner as well.  Normals skew shading, they don't only just make certain seams noticeable. (as with Aafyre's Gengar)  

    Take a look at an edited version of Mariokart's Mewtwo in brawlbox...


    Now in-game


    On my Young Link, I noticed that while I was satisfied with his face in BrawlBox, the in-game result had a harder-looking, less youthful face.



    (I don't have many close up shots of his face left in bad lighting. all of them were on brawlsnapshots. which is down)


    and here's Lightning. In brawl, there's noticeable seams everywhere, face is shaded flat, legs are blocky, and her hair's lighting is inconsistent. (like my Roy's) If full on normal editing doesn't come out, I plan on picking her back up and use normal nulling techniques shown in BY's Zero. This is an unreleased hack.
    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1418/lighto.png
    (linked to for size)

    There's tons more examples.  

    We appreciate things in spite of crippling flaws the artist's model has to deal with in the end product. Yes, these flaws still make it mediocre. There isn't an excuse, and there never will be a legitimate excuse until we fix normal problems. While fixing vertex weights would be great, and is another problem, It's not that bad if the original model is good. And totally avoidable. Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
     

    And of course, here's the logs I was referring to earlier

    Demonslayerx8 says:
     
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoMtEHHV-Q" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoMtEHHV-Q</a>

    Waluigiking64DS says:
     hey
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     there ya go every1!
    Velen says:
     ...I wanna mess around with this textures.
     *Those
    Waluigiking64DS says:
     HADOUKEN
      
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     and hi MK
      
      Sai has been added to the conversation.
      
    Velen says:
     What was that all about?
    Sai says:
     ?
    Waluigiking64DS says:
     *pikmin Music with Ryu*
     HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     heh yeah
     i didnt want to SAKURAI!!!!!!!! with the codes -_-
    Jiro says:
     And um... Don't mind these people, they're just um... Putting down vex editing in general.  
     And saying how much they all suck.
    Sai says:
     what plpz?
     and yes, most vertex edits  kinda are pretty bad
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     ya
    Jiro says:
     Man... You guys are harsh... <_<;
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     lol
    Velen says:
     It's true on some level, though Data.
    Sai says:
     would u rather have us be brutally honest or telling lies?
    Velen says:
     Honest is better than brutally honest.
    Sai says:
      
    Pik says:
     90% of brawl hacks suck ass
    Velen says:
     No "And/Or" Fallacies please.
    Pik says:
     And that includes mine
    Sai says:
     i dont think its THAT high
    Jiro says:
     Damn... Why are you in here? Downer much? <_<;
    Velen says:
     Me either.
    Sai says:
     but it still is pretty high
    Pik says:
     No, I mean
    Jiro says:
     Seriously...
    Pik says:
     None of them are truly good.
    Velen says:
     What.
    Jiro says:
     They're good for WHAT YOU CAN DO.
    Velen says:
     Just. What?
    Pik says:
     Which isn't good enough
    Jiro says:
     HELLO! Shesh, shut the hell up! >_<;
    Pik says:
     We understand the limitations, therefore can appreciate them
     But to people outside, they usually suck
     A lot of them do
    Jiro says:
     God, you're being TOO much of a downer...
    Pik says:
     And will continue to suck until normal editing comes out
     It's only the truth
     and why I've stopped hacking so often
    Jiro says:
     I don't need to hear it every time you're in here. <_<;
    Pik says:
     It's all fun
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     o.o
    Sai says:
     I agree
    Pik says:
     I don't mention it every single time
      
    Sai says:
     but i still hack since its fun
    Pik says:
     infact, I think this it the first where I've gone into detail
    Jiro says:
     Oh yeah, they have shading problems, they SUCK ASS, yeah, cool story bro.
    Pik says:
     yeah. It's good for fun.
     Shading problems are a big deal
    Sai says:
     ^
    Pik says:
     are you kidding?
     and shut up about 'cool story bro'
     that's dead
    Velen says:
     Well, guess what. Even if Normal's editting comes out, it will still be so poorly understood by people who have not worked on it that in the long run it will seem impractical until someone comes up with a simplified process.
    Pik says:
     I hate to be so harsh
    Jiro says:
     The stop.
     ...
    Pik says:
     But yeah...I guess I should apologize?
    Jiro says:
     *Then
    Pik says:
     Stop?
     But it's only the truth
     And before
     we were talking about the truth
    Jiro says:
     Picky...
    Pik says:
     It's not being picky
     compare a brawl model to a hack
    Jiro says:
     OCD.
    Pik says:
     the hack NEVER holds up
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     well maybe some ppl dont want to hear u ranting bout it -_-
    Pik says:
     that's cool
     and true
     I doubt most of you want to hear this
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     i kno i dont
    Jiro says:
     Uh no, we really don't.
    Velen says:
     Its the same with vertexers. The reason there aren't many vertexers is because many people find it tedious and the ins and outs of what can and cannot be done are poorly understood.
    Pik says:
     I think I've gotten my point across, but w/e
     why are you so against me saying this anyway?
     It's my honest opinion
    Velen says:
     When something is poorly understood, people will find it impractical.
    Pik says:
     Brawl hackers are skilled people, the limitations hold them down
    Velen says:
     Not all of them are as skilled as you think Pik.
    Jiro says:
     It's annoying, that's why, I mean, yes, there are shading problems, I know, but there's no way to edit that yet, you putting down every hack out there... That's a low blow.
    Pik says:
     I'm not insulting the people that made them, or the stuff they can control
    Sai says:
     well when (if this ever comes to fruition) we can make our own models, things will change
     but thats a long time from now
    Pik says:
     I'm just saying that the limitations make their work worse
    Sai says:
     if at all
    Pik says:
     Anyway, I suggest we move on
    Jiro says:
     But I still wouldn't say they suck ass though...
    Pik says:
     I'm exaggerating
     I play with a lot of hacks and enjoy them, but it's a shame they aren't at their full potential
    Velen says:
     Pik.
    Demonslayerx8 says:
     pik... quit it...
     please...
    Sai says:
     like when I look at a vertex hack, I think "Thats good from what we can do"
    Velen says:
     Whether or not they are at there full potential is subjective.
     To the person who makes them and the persons who observe them.
     That is fact.
    Pik says:
     Yeah, Demon, I kinda planned on stopping
     and I understand Velen
     but again. I'm not attacking anyone.
     if you don't think the limitations are crippling, I don't know
     Gengar with overall tattoos is 'full potential'
     Again though
     Let's just move on
     I worded things too harsh and focused too much on the bad things
     And was probably a [censored] while doing it
    Velen says:
     ...I don't even need to answer that...
     Anyway...There is another thing I want to ask about...
    Pik says:
     Answer what? :\
     nvm
    Velen says:
     Who here can help me with UV editting something? I want to fix something on a hack improvement I am doing for Miacis.



    every hack I listed above looks good under certain conditions. But when you pause randomly, without trying to get good shots, the hack more often than not has some shading issues.
    « Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 10:10:03 PM by Pik » Logged

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    « Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 09:22:16 PM »


    Yeah, I agree with Pik 100% here.

    People, these guys are working hard at changing Brawl models into something they weren't made to be. For example, Lucario wasn't supposed to be Mewtwo. So problems such as those are inevitable. Blame Brawl's original model artists, not the guys who made the vertexes. They're the reason these limitations exist. Tongue

    You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  Im srs here
    « Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 09:24:43 PM by TARGET » Logged

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    « Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 09:49:27 PM »


    Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
    You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  Im srs here

    If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).
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    « Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 11:14:28 PM »


    Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
    You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  Im srs here

    If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).

    I'm not a random C# dev >.>
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    « Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 11:39:13 PM »


    LOL the infamous MSN log.

    Well, all that aside. What a beautiful Lightning, and very nice fix for MarioKart64n's Mewtwo.
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    « Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 07:36:09 AM »


    http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0

    Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#
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    « Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 05:08:00 PM »


    http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0

    Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#


    Who's crying? I just said it would be faster if people did know C#...

    I'm not a random C# dev >.>


    No, you're not. Tongue
    « Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 05:16:40 PM by BlackJax96 » Logged

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    « Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 05:30:25 PM »


    Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?
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    « Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:33:30 PM »


    Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
    You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  Im srs here

    If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).

    That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
    What's wrong with python >.>
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    « Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 06:33:36 PM »


    I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
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    Texture updates.

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    « Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 06:44:35 PM »


    That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
    What's wrong with python >.>
    I assume C# was referred to because thats what brawlbox was written in
    Tcll is doing a lot of work in python with his converter and gfx viewer though
    « Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 06:50:16 PM by LordNOaH » Logged


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    « Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 06:55:32 PM »


    Yeah, python's cool. But it'd be easier to just edit Brawlbox, which is already set up, instead of making a converter from scratch.
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    « Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 07:06:07 PM »


    Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?


    >_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.


    I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.


    Please do. Oh shi~
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    « Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 07:12:40 PM »


    >.>
    I like how Zero looks with obscure normals...
    ...And Mewtwo...
    ...And YLink...
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    « Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 09:23:06 PM »


    Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?


    >_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.


    I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.


    Please do. Oh shi~

    Oh, well good job fixing the shading issue. Wink
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