The Art and Intricacies of Moveset Making

[SiLeNtDo0m]

As quite a few of you may know, I'm part of the Project M team as an animator.  Because of this, I've also been able to frequently use the closed alpha build that we members have, and have had access to the PMBR and been observing a lot of the playtester feedback and comments and idea correlation and something occurred to me...

There are SOOOOO many factors in making properly good movesets, as well as many things one needs to do to be a good moveset hacker

Most people on the forums don't realise this (even moveset makers themselves).  You may think you do (I thought I did too), but until you experience something like what I've seen as regards to P:M you won't really.  There are just so many little things, so many intricacies that really help to lift movesets.  Ones that most of you wouldn't even notice unless you properly went in depth with a character and properly knew how to play as them.  One thing I notice about the vast majority of PSAs is that people will play them for about a week and give feedback on them during that time.  After that though, people stop giving feedback at all.

Unlike a vertex or a stage, a PSA takes time to properly utilize.  With a vertex, you see it, maybe use it in game and then your feedback on it is pretty set.  Sure there may be a glitch or something when used ingame, but that's not quite the same.  With a PSA, it's not the same.  Something that may initially seem OPed or just really good, may turn out to have fundamental weaknesses that prevent this (see Pit and Wolf, two characters that were initially thought to be two of the best in the game only to end up as middle tier characters) or even vice versa. 

For example, I remember the first couple of people that gave me feedback on my Kid Buu PSA claimed the Down B to be useless.  However, later on people actually found that it was extremely useful when used properly.  That's a more short term example, but looking at the stuff on P:M, it's amazing to see how feedback of things develop.  I won't go into too much detail, or I may accidentally leak something I shouldn't and not realise XD   

Another thing is moveset variety.  A good moveset maker can make movesets with a variety of different playstyles or approaches.  One of the main reasons I like to pick and mix my planned PSA projects and why I just choose stuff kinda randomly is to experiment with different playstyles.  A PSAer should NOT stick to one kind of way in which they make PSAs.  This doesn't mean they shouldn't adapt their own style.  That's not what I mean at all.  A PSAer's style allows them to define their own PSAs.  It allows them to make a PSA and for people to think "yep, this is a PSA by 'x'".  What it does mean is that one shouldn't make all their characters play in a similar fashion. 

A good PSAer needs to be able to show off their diversity as a hacker and an artist since imo, moveset making is in itself an art form.  Not only that, but they have to cleverly work around the restrictions that Brawl gives.  There's a certain way to play Brawl, and all kinds of hackers should try to not only try to make hacks that fit with the general style, but also try to evolve them with some creative ideas.  People who look at these hacks need to have an open enough mind to accept this.

Then of course, we have the whole thing of giving your PSAs movesets "character", but still having a good balance of utility and overall moveset usefulness.  This is an animation thing to be honest though.  A fantastic example of this would be the Waluigi moveset.  It reflects his character beautifully.  Humorous, light-hearted and comical.  But the moves still work and felt like they were carefully picked.  A character that just has a mess of "canon" moves can a lot of the time be very dull.  There isn't a single moveset in Brawl that is entirely constructed of exactly replicated canon moves.  They all have some sort of twist to them.  One that helps to represent something from the series, but also function decently in Smash. 

Striking this balance is very difficult sometimes, especially when a lot of feedback generally only focuses on one of these aspects, sometimes it's even just used as a way to complain about something.  To point out some tiny insignificant animation flaw about a moveset because it's not "perfect".  Newsflash.  No original moveset ever created by anyone will be perfect.  Sure, I'm all up for well presented PSAs.  Heck, I think it's one of the most important aspects of PSA making which is why despite the fact that a lot of people have been saying my Kid Buu public test demo could have functioned as a V1, I don't even think it classifies as a beta. 

Would you make a drawing or a sketch that you want to release and say "Yeah the outline is there, but no where near enough for it to feel 'complete'.  But I'll release it anyway." ?  Of course you wouldn't.  So why do people release PSAs that are clearly incomplete to the level where there's little point in giving constructive advice because so little is done.  I've never understood why moveset makers decide to release v0.1 versions of movesets.  It's totally pointless.  If all you've done are some incomplete special moves, then the whole fundamental basis of the actual moveset and playstyle (i.e. the normals) isn't there, and as a result any critique or feedback isn't worthwhile because you haven't done close to enough.  Though what I said about Kid Buu was a more slightly more extreme example due to an attitude I more adopted from seeing the stuff at P:M, but even then I'm a perfectionist and I want it done right.


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I've ranted a lot already, but I've barely scratched the surface.  It's hard to properly convey what I'm saying, but hopefully (if you bothered to read this wall of text) you should get the general gist of it.  This is merely something that I wanted to express, as well as maybe help some moveset hackers into thinking about their hacks more. 

Deuces peepz.  Feel free to have a discussion...

[HaloedHero]

Glad somebody, especially somebody respected, said these things. I started about a week ago writing up a massive post of advice on things that I think are holding the community back. While I'm out of commission, I'd at least like to help the community somehow.

I haven't finished it yet, but you partially touched on one of my points about people releasing incomplete work. I, too, think a lot of people need to hold back on releasing their stuff until it's more complete.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

Glad somebody, especially somebody respected, said these things. I started about a week ago writing up a massive post of advice on things that I think are holding the community back. While I'm out of commission, I'd at least like to help the community somehow.

I haven't finished it yet, but you partially touched on one of my points about people releasing incomplete work. I, too, think a lot of people need to hold back on releasing their stuff until it's more complete.

Nice!  Can't wait to see what you have to say as well  

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah I've noticed this too. Like when people were saying my first release of Sora was missing something and woefully underpowered, they weren't aware of the fair and bair's properties, despite the fact that I included it in the guide.

Guess I should've uploaded gameplay. Too bad I can't do that since the definitive version of all my PSAs minus Lyn aren't accessible now.

[Velen]

I know this too. Not to the same extent, but in similar measure.

Like with LKB.

[DoctorFlux(Mariodk)]

this is mainly to the last you said about making alot of updates/versions:
i do it so i can work on something else after i am done with afew or alot updates on a moveset
since i am one who can´t work on one thing at a time or it gets boring and i lose motivetion so i better like to do this that way as i did on Goku moveset
thats how i work best with making movesets
i think it is better to have alot of versions (small or big updates) instead lose motivetion for a hack
Gotenks moveset will mostly be like 2-3 versions
1 first version then all attacks/Animations is done
2 version after all the feedback(if i get any feedback as i still dont got with Goku V1.5 after uploaded on BV)
3 revamps(if needed)
alot like Sdo0m almost do first version of his PSAs got any attack done and 2nd. one of his PSA is after feedback and possible a revamp (like shadow, V.joe) later  as the last version

and about feedback it is really hard to get good feedback and on youtube lets just say you almost just have to ignore them since they know nothing (most of them) about how to PSA,what is possible and etc.

[KingJigglypuff]

Yes, I see. I wait to release a PSA until I give it all the moves I want it to have. And then progressively make fixes. And also original characters seem to be my thing. :/

[Allbait]

I hope this isn't directed at me... I'm not really the best PSA-er around and most of my PSAs are just to give chars a new feel and not to change them into a completely new one... I tried that with Rosalina and it just became my WORST nightmare...  Its my most downloaded hack even though I completely broke it and forgot to keep a backup of the older versions X_X If I believed that hack could still be saved... I wouldn't even bother... Making "magical" and awesome unique movesets isn't my thing... I'll just stick to my corner of shame XD

[SiLeNtDo0m]

I hope this isn't directed at me... I'm not really the best PSA-er around and most of my PSAs are just to give chars a new feel and not to change them into a completely new one... I tried that with Rosalina and it just became my WORST nightmare...  Its my most downloaded hack even though I completely broke it and forgot to keep a backup of the older versions X_X If I believed that hack could still be saved... I wouldn't even bother... Making "magical" and awesome unique movesets isn't my thing... I'll just stick to my corner of shame XD

This wasn't intended to be directed at any single individual.  Everyone has their own way of doing things.  I merely made this so that people who do make movesets would think about them more, and for those who don't understand the complexities of making them more.

[Kaye Cruiser]

Can't say I disagree with anything here. o.o

Funny you should mention P:M, there's actually a specific reason why I like P:M Lucario so much. It's really because it's kind of how I originally planned on making Full Throttle when I got the idea for him, but I didn't have a damn clue how to do it at the time, and I still don't, which is the ONLY thing keeping me from making a version 2...Well, that and I still don't know how to animate, let alone do it well.  - -' And I'm not nearly as interested in Brawl Hacking anymore. But continuing on, I basically just improvised and did things a little differently. It wasn't quite what I envisioned, but it was good enough. It still matched what I felt was my style, and most of all, I enjoyed playing with it.

The only reason I ever make anything after all, is for myself. Everyone else just happens to end up liking it everytime. No matter how big or small, like making Eldiran's Zero use the Z-Saber like he should. Sure it was a request someone made, but I had actually been waiting for someone else to do that, specifically him. xD

But you know what they say, if you want something done right, you've gotta do it yourself. ¦D And with that said, I may have some plans for Lucario vertex wise soon. >_>

But yeah. After Full Throttle, I kind of wanted to expand on it and make a Sonic moveset based off the fangame "Sonic Battle Lost Ending Neo". Typical japanese random name, but it's damn awesome. The playstyle Lucario is in would be perfect for something like that. :<

Anyway, I'm done rambling about nothing. Very good points made. :3