[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Miacis]

Talking negatively isn't the issue.  Raising an argument that has been raised a thousand times and has been beaten to death is.

I am so so sorry for raising what I felt was valid criticism. Next time we talk about such things, I'll make sure to be too nice with my 'feedback' and as a result leave completely unconstructive comments instead of digging into the more painful subjects.

But even in a thousand times, I've yet to see a definitive answer that isn't simply "oh, just shut up already." It's obviously a very debatable subject, so I'd rather not this interesting conversation get dropped right when we were starting to get into its detail.

[Bad Box Art Mega Man]

I am so so sorry for raising what I felt was valid criticism. Next time we talk about such things, I'll make sure to be too nice with my 'feedback' and as a result leave completely unconstructive comments instead of digging into the more painful subjects.

But even in a thousand times, I've yet to see a definitive answer that isn't simply "oh, just shut up already." It's obviously a very debatable subject, so I'd rather not this interesting conversation get dropped right when we were starting to get into its detail.

fair enough.

[♤♡◇♧]

I have a definitive answer for you Miacis.
People in the competitive scene don't want to see Falco Luigified, and since we're catering more to them, it's more or less a given that he won't be Luigified.
If you want to change Falco, that's fine, but we're not going to do it any time soon.

[BlueBrain]

thing is though, the P:M team has already stated they won't be changing it, so even though we may all express our opinions, it is kind of useless, since P:M is not a democratic mod or anything like that...

anyway, is it possible to tool assist P:M?

EDIT: ninja'd...

[Miacis]

I have a definitive answer for you Miacis.
People in the competitive scene don't want to see Falco Luigified, and since we're catering more to them, it's more or less a given that he won't be Luigified.
If you want to change Falco, that's fine, but we're not going to do it any time soon.

That sounds more like an extremely vague dismissal than an actual answer.
Are you saying that nobody in the competitive scene objected to seeing the other characters change?
How can those anti-change-for-top-tiers people dislike something that hasn't even been tried?

What was the process when changing other movesets? Did you make a some sort of poll to see if people wanted to see changes or not before modifying anything? Or did you simply change stuff for the better, then fine tuned it?
If it's the latter, why was that method specifically not used for all the top tier characters?

More importantly, how can't the PMBR even seem to understand that it's a problem to give no incentive to play some of their characters for a major part of their audience (main ornot)?

Really, that raised more questions than it actually answered.

[♤♡◇♧]

No, not really.
I answered the question if we were going to revamp/Luigify Falco or not, and that's that.
If you can't see an answer in my last post, then that's your problem, and not mine.

[Miacis]

Nice try, but you're giving me an answer to a question I have never asked. If you had followed the discussion instead of taking turns with the others, you'd have noticed what I was actually asking (and suggesting). It's a lot more broad (and fascinating, if I may say so myself) than "Can you make Falco Luigified?"

Not that "people asked for it" is even much of an answer to the why of it all either. More like a polite version of the usual "just shut up already".

Makes me wonder if you guys even really know why you've been alienating casual players from all the Melee top tiers, or if you actually believed that everyone would love the bland replicas over having original content? oô

[♤♡◇♧]

I lol'd.

But really, there's no point discussing this further (especially with you), as everything has been pretty much covered already, and you trying to prolong this discussion for the sake of discussion is laughable at best.

[BlueBrain]

anyone wanna P:M online?

[Miacis]

@ ds22: Good way to contribute to the conversation here... If you have nothing to say, please don't make a post about it.
Just let people who want to discuss things discuss it. You honestly haven't been very helpful in answering any of my numerous remarks, and it's not like this is anything short of a civilized debate here.

[StarWaffle]

So wait, what's the argument here?  Why was Falco re-cloned to mimic his role in melee and not other characters from that game? 
Alienating casual players?  Stricltly catering to Tourney[censored]s?

If every character was given a toon link/wolf/lucario revamp, wouldn't that be 100% alienating tourney[censored]s and strictly catering to casual players? Since they would be getting 0 characters from their beloved melee, giving them no reason (in their minds) to migrate over or even try out PM?

I mean yeah, if you JUST look at falco, it's completely 1 sided. Only caring about what one portion of the community thinks the character should be but in the grand scheme of things he's only 1 character. Maybe a mish-mosh of 100% melee and revamps isn't the best way to give something to everyone but I do think it's the only way in this case.

I think the way they handled this project was pretty acceptable. There are compromises for both casual and competitive players. Meleeheads get their what? 4-ish/41 carbon-copy melee characters and casual players also get a bunch of new [censored] to muk around with.  

In a game where the initial goal was to recreate melee falco in brawl, I'd say the project bloomed into something that surpringly gave a lot of *new* things for casual payers.

also fyi i'd like to classify myslef as a casual if it's at all relevant.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

It isn't because it's just you being a snarky smartass and trying to force a tired discussion that nobody wants to discuss.  You know Miacis for an admin (and having been one for so long) your complete lack of any sort of professionalism is laughable

[StarWaffle]

You thinking it's a fact is just your opinion.

Also can we all just appreciate this comment for a moment?

[Miacis]

@StarWaffle: Maybe I'm having a bit of trouble making myself understood there, or I've really missed the point of Toon Link and friends.
The way I understand it, even characters that were given revamps were designed to be enjoyable for tourneyheads, not just casuals. The way the characters are described on the website sure makes it seem that way, in any case. Was I wrong in assuming that?

I just don't agree with the assumption that there is a large enough category of people in their audience who wouldn't accept to play anything BUT a 100% replica. Without the nostalgia goggles, ie, after having tried a revamped (but tourney-friendly) iteration.
And really, I'm taking Falco as the most obvious example (since that "replication" causes him to lose the little personality he had in Brawl), but since the beginning, all I've been talking about are the Melee top tiers.

I'm not saying it's currently all for tourneyheads or that the project is even bad. I just find it a bit disheartening that there is such an imbalance of tourney attaction VS casual attraction on those characters, whereas the others have been (so I've read) balanced to be enjoyable by both.

@SDoom: Thank you for the meaningful contribution. Sure, I enjoy wasting my time here, getting insulted left and right by you people, just for the sake of being a "snarky smartass".

[Eternal Yoshi]

Also can we all just appreciate this comment for a moment?

I can.

Anyway, If anyone wants to play PM Wifi with me, PM me on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and on Weekends. If I respond in a timely manner, that means I'm getting ready and am available.

I'm up for no item serious battles and item battles with all of them on low, just say which when PMing me.