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Author Topic: [Official] Project M discussion: RIP  (Read 728528 times)
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    « Reply #1950 on: July 12, 2014, 01:12:52 PM »


    Brb. I got plenty of popcorn at work.

    Get it? Cuz I work in a movie theater.
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    « Reply #1951 on: July 12, 2014, 01:16:53 PM »


    You got your answer already in the posts of the previous page. Please read them for your answer.

    Edit: Thanks Seggy for bumping this post to the next page. -_-

    Anyway, make that 2 pages ago.
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    « Reply #1952 on: July 12, 2014, 02:06:55 PM »


    You got your answer already in the posts of the previous page. Please read them for your answer.
    Maybe I missed something crucial, but all I've seen were reasons why the PMBR does not wish to replace the CE in its current state with BrawlEx (in its current state).

    I'm asking about directing development towards fixing the flaws of BrawlEx instead of having to deal with the CE being slower, less safe and less tightly programmed. (Also less slots, which I guess the PMBR won't consider a problem until it becomes one.)

    Right now BrawlEx has three flaws, you said, and none of them sound like they need to rerite the whole code to be fixed. In comparison, I don't think there is a way to fix the CE's flaws without basically reconstructing it. If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me, since you probably know more about it than Nano or me. That's why I was asking.

    It's a question about the better(?) base to elaborate on, not on the current state of one engine vs the other.

    Also, I still don't have an answer for this:
    Didn't you just say that you can't release the CE because it super-complicated and long to set up? .-.
    If what is taking time is actually animating and balancing, then I don't see what the big deal is. Anyone can do that without needing to tune everything to PGM Melee standards.
    Once again, if I'm taking the time to ask, it's because I didn't get any answer.

    ***
    As a side-note: sorry to say, but why is it that when there's a direct question asked to the PMBR, it always takes three pages to get a straight, not-tiptoey answer?
    I had that with the whole Falco clone discussion. With Zhine leaving the team peacefully (hah). With the whole "P:M is basically Melee 2.0" stuff. I had that with every goddam time ds22 and Dant were flipping their [censored] in Programming. Apparently mk64 also had to deal with that considering the way he was asking about Waluigi.
    And now again.

    This is very very irritating. Is the master credits list even done yet? About a month ago, I pointed out that P:M barely credits anybody in the SSBB Hacking community besides their "stars" and was assured people were starting to work on it.
    What's the current state of things? (And will I need to fill 3 more pages to get that answer?)
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 02:15:14 PM by Miacis » Logged

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    « Reply #1953 on: July 12, 2014, 02:18:08 PM »


    Hello, police. I'd like to report shots fired.
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    « Reply #1954 on: July 12, 2014, 04:38:16 PM »


    Allow me to (try to) explain, Mia.

    The first video is relevant because of the mechanics of the characters in the game, and because of what Project M's goal is: to be a more competitive fighting game, rather than a Party Fighter. This also ties into the fact some things in Melee were brought back into Project M. Mechanics most people outside of competitive play have never heard of, don't understand very well, or have never had them adequately demonstrated or explained. Not to mention the deceptive complexity of some of the mechanics.

    The third video: Depth vs Complexity, is relevant to Project M because of how the competitive community, the people this fan-made mod is mostly focused toward, are pretty much obsessed with the idea that Melee has a lot of depth, and it's relevant Project M will be mostly scrutinized for it's perceived depth compared to Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4.

    The last video, Counter Play, is another important aspect because it's something that is -or should be- part of any game with any competitive type of play. It's especially relevant to fighting games because it deals with options that players have to counter an action beset upon them by the opposing player or players.
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    « Reply #1955 on: July 12, 2014, 05:29:24 PM »


    still love due that all love the melee air dodge even if it was never intended to be that game!

    why does everyone love that glitch so it has to be input in P:M.

    would love if they actually changed so you can "Air dodge" like in brawl, but doing the wavedash/L cancling is something else, like a new method that doesnt have to be exactly like Melee. like Pressing R/L does the Brawl Dodge which is faster while pressing Z (or something else) can let you do it like in Melee that you can move and get a extra moment
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    « Reply #1956 on: July 12, 2014, 05:39:43 PM »


    still love due that all love the melee air dodge even if it was never intended to be that game!

    why does everyone love that glitch so it has to be input in P:M.

    would love if they actually changed so you can "Air dodge" like in brawl, but doing the wavedash/L cancling is something else, like a new method that doesnt have to be exactly like Melee. like Pressing R/L does the Brawl Dodge which is faster while pressing Z (or something else) can let you do it like in Melee that you can move and get a extra moment

    that would be cool. like. pressing R = melee dodge pressing L = brawl dodge. or something like that
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    « Reply #1957 on: July 12, 2014, 06:20:18 PM »


    Miacis-We aren't going to help develop BrawlEx. Why? We don't want to. We have more important things to work on with the project. Our clone engine works perfect for the way we need it to work.

    There's your answer. I know you probably aren't happy with it, but you just have to deal with it.

    And you know why there are three pages of argument? Because you can't ever be happy with an answer we give. You always have to argue and argue until you are 100% satisfied with what we say. Well I'm sorry to say this, but at this point I can tell that you will never be satisfied with Project M. So you need to just deal with it and move on.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 06:25:06 PM by Nαno » Logged

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    « Reply #1958 on: July 12, 2014, 06:35:49 PM »


    Ah, well in that case I am very sorry for asking the questions that the PMBR does not want to answer.

    There's still the other two questions in my previous post, but considering the very defensive answers I've gotten, I guess I'll sit on them for now?

    I mean, who cares about crediting perfect strangers as long as they don't complain directly? [censored] the silent masses, they don't have thousands of subscribers on FB.
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    « Reply #1959 on: July 12, 2014, 07:37:41 PM »


    While it is your personal opinion as you painstakingly made clear, Spex, my problem is your exaggeration of what I'm saying. Not everyone needs to learn, hell, I think it would make Project M rather lackluster and buggy if every single person on the team had input. Fact remains, 3, 4 or even 5 heads are better than two.

    BrawlEX and the Clone Engine however, perform the same function. The result is adding more characters (or slots) that can be used for new characters or extra costumes. They are two different codesets achieving the same end through different means.

    The problem with the Clone Engine as it stands is that it takes a very long time and the precision of a surgeon to edit it without causing problems, according to EY's earlier answer, and only two people know how to do that by any stretch. You're dragging your collective feet along simply because that's how you want it to be, the way you make it sound.

    It doesn't matter how collectively smart the PMBR is if the trappings of your own decisions end up causing you problems that make doing the work a headache.

    To clarify: I am impartial, despite the above, of whether you use the Clone Engine or BrawlEX, but the fact still remains: if you having a cumbersome code slows down your progress, then you should have other people fluent in coding look at it and let them suggest improvements. Being harder to edit doesn't make it more solid.


    Nobody said our CE was cumbersome or badly coded, or took surgical precision to edit(lol) you inferred all this from EY saying only 2 people knew how it worked and it took a long time to edit, but believe me adjustments to our CE is not the bottleneck to churning out new characters faster, PSA coding, animating and balancing them to professional standards is
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    « Reply #1960 on: July 12, 2014, 08:12:09 PM »



    Nobody said our CE was cumbersome or badly coded, or took surgical precision to edit(lol) you inferred all this from EY saying only 2 people knew how it worked and it took a long time to edit, but believe me adjustments to our CE is not the bottleneck to churning out new characters faster, PSA coding, animating and balancing them to professional standards is

    You're right. I did infer that all from what EY said. Cause it's the thing that makes the most sense to me. Exactly how long does each edit to the Clone Engine take you? That would give some perspective to things, wouldn't you agree?

    It taking so long to work on the Clone Engine's code means there's something not quite optimal with the way it was constructed, the way I see it. Sure, I fully admit that I couldn't do it better, but the thing is, for each new slot or thing that utilizes the CE, you guys needs to edit what's already there and add new code, and the way Eternal made it sound to me, it takes you guys a headache of a time to get it all done in a timely manner.

    I mean. What would you rather have? A set of code that is easy, streamlined, and simple to edit while being coded solidly, or something that takes you an adventure and a half to edit all the things you need in, when that time could've been allocated to something else going toward the project?

    As I said, being harder to edit doesn't necessarily make it more solid. It just makes your jobs take longer than they need to...and while people aren't complaining about how long it's taking to get your stuff done, I think some of you would like to get these updates out faster than your current pace.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 08:13:27 PM by Velen » Logged


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    « Reply #1961 on: July 12, 2014, 08:27:18 PM »


    Hello, we are sorry if our members could not provide an answer to your questions in a satisfactory way. They are currently very busy with crucial parts of the game and can unfortunately be rather stressed with the the amount of work.

    We are also sorry that we do not have members specialized with public relations active on kc-mm to communicate with you but our resources are limited. I will provide you answers that should hopefully cover all of the questions that have been asked recently.

    First, about mariokingds64's waluigi. The process of choosing which characters will be included in the future in Project M is very intrincate and a lot of factors must be considered. We unfortunately cannot disclose how the process exactly happens, but a lot depends on what our members are willing to work with, the technical limitations, concept construction and consideration if it will be appealling to our whole public, from competitive players to those who only play the game for fun.

    As the game is a non-profit effort, and will always be, having members willing to work on a character is key to make sure that it will indeed go forward. We receive character requests every day, including other people who wish to see a certain PSA in the game. But we cannot answer questions about those in order to avoid trouble in future, as it is possible that we can be working on a character but hurdles during development might force us to drop it.

    We as a team have not confirmed nor deconfirmed Waluigi, but, we will not use PSAs by third persons. A character is extremely important for the game and we prefer to develop them inside the team with possible collaboration with outside artists for their aesthetics, this way we can have a greater degree of control over its development. It is the most professional way to handle character development in our situation. We hope you understand.

    Now, the questions asked by Miacis.

    We wish to stay with the inside developed CE as it fullfils all the needs we have for the game. We have chosen to stay with 7 slots in order to maintain a more controlled development environment, gives us a tangible limit, makes it easier to solve the system problems without having to replace more stuff in the future and also because developing 7 characters in the most professional way is very demanding and our members work on the game only during their free time and are not paid to work. Other point is that the character inclusion must eventually end and depending on the demands of our public we might not even need to use all of the slots. Having 41 characters to learn how to fight against is already a lot to ask from the players and we must be cautious with new character inclusions.

    Also, our members responsible for the engine will have an easier time working on a code they constructed then on a code they do not know completely. We have no interest in officially supporting the BrawlEx development due to the fact that we already have what we need and the advantages of BrawlEx are not appealling to us to justify a transition.

    About credits, we are very busy with the game in order to concentrate a lot of effort into crediting. This way, the most convenient way to handle it is to leave to the creators, if a person feels he is not being properly credited, contact us and we will fix it. Our members mostly do not care much about crediting and are more concerned with creating more content for players to enjoy, but when they wish to be publicly known for having done something, we will make sure that the creator's name will be shown if not in the game due to limited resources but in our official website or social media channels.

    We hope the answers were satisfactory, if not, we unfortunately cannot disclose more information about CE and new character inclusions.

    edit: I apologize if the post sounds a lot too formal, but english is not my first language and that is the way I have to make sure the information I convey will be understood.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 08:44:19 PM by FireBall Stars » Logged

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    « Reply #1962 on: July 12, 2014, 09:23:00 PM »


    Ah, a pleasant answer to sweeten the sour taste in my mouth after all this. You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. Not much in the way of new information though (as good PR talk should be?).
    No complaints about the English though. I'm French, so I can sympathize. Smiley

    ***
    I don't see how forcing yourselves with a slot limit is helping in any way to control the size of the cast, unless the development team just cannot stop themselves from filling ALL THE SLOTS. (In which case the problem isn't on the coder's side, but on the shrink's.)

    But aside from that, old stuff. So I guess the whole matter of "why not just build onto BrawlEx?" will be left to "We have no interest in it." Disappointing, but not unexpected, as I've seen from past experience.
    My question was more of a coding perspective as to why the PMBR believe it'll take less time to upgrade BrawlEx to fit instead of taking more time just having the CE working. But since no more information can be disclosed about it for whatever reason, that also settles my question into a non-answer.
    I guess the whole "safety" thing isn't even important enough to get mentionned either. Oh well.

    Next is the bigger point of contention.
    Credits.

    ****
    You have to understand that the SSBB Hacking community is not reduced to the PMBR. In fact, a major part of the ressources used by P:M come directly from SSBB Hacking websites. I won't lie to you, but nowadays it's kinda just us. A large number of the artists that make all those sick renders and build up the hype have started here, learned from here, and become famous here. Even if some of them don't even seem to remember it.

    We are an open-source community. But we still have a bit of an obligation to give proper credit where credit's due. When you take work from someone and modify it into your own, you credit the person.
    It's most basic respect. You don't see me take someone's PSA of a lifetime, botch up a few moves, and then have my name and only mine featured as the original creator.

    Heck, that's not just disrespectful, that's just plain theft.

    I've been led to believe you never even started compiling the credits for all the works you've used. Which is why now, it's probably way too late to start doing it, years after. How does that happen?
    How do you start working on a product that you're eventually going to market (even for free), and then never ask yourself the question of who did what?

    I mean, I'm not even talking about the guy who did the toe texture on Green Lucario's right paw. Glaring stuff like "Thany made most of Roy's PSA, then SDoom edited it. Guess who gets his name on it." or "Why the [censored] is Dantarion not even listed?" That list doesn't even seem to have been edited since 2012 too.

    But apparently, there's a need for victims to call out for that theft for you to do anything? That's like me going around random stores, sneaking items out, then saying it's not theft unless they ask it back.
    If you're waiting for the silent masses to speak up for credits, then you're really not doing things as professionally as that. That just seems more like backyard traffic to me than an honest business.

    ***
    I was also led to believe that the list was being worked on:

    "We don't have a complete listing of everything that's been made right now but we are slowly working towards making a complete master list. At the moment, we only have some character and stage models down on a list. Because this is such a big project a credits list would take a large chunk of time to create when we're still working on the game itself and things are still ever-changing. If you were looking to use a credits list to determine what's actually ours, we could probably work towards getting something more complete to you as soon as we are able.

    Please let us know if you have any other questions."


    **That is from the team leaders of the PMBR.**

    But from what you're saying, I guess you guys really aren't compiling that list, and just waiting for people to do it for you.

    And I suppose that message I got was just someone trying to smooth-talk me. Again.
    This isn't getting repetitive at all.

    Being busy is not an excuse. If you have the time and energy to spend advertising your game on social networks, streaming websites, be featured in tournaments and even sell T shirts, you certainly have more than enough time to give credit to the people whose work you use.

    ***
    Also please get someone who actually knows PR to check this place more often. I'm sick and tired of your coders starting fires on our Programming section and [censored]ting all over this community every time their [censored] Engine is leaked out.
    « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 09:24:08 PM by Miacis » Logged

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    « Reply #1963 on: July 12, 2014, 11:42:03 PM »


    Disrespect is unfortunately a relevant accusation. Although I have to make clear that theft does not configure in any angle you analyze the situation.

    We all do not hold legal right over any of the intellectual properties being used in the game and do not sell any of the content present in-game. If we did sell, then it would be theft, towards any of the actual legal owners of the content such as Nintendo, Sora, Sega and Konami. I will not enter in the semantics discussion about theft, as what really matters for that accusation is that the legislation does not support it and we all as modders cannot truly steal content from another modder not only because it is a derivative work but also is protected by copyright law of the actual owner that justifies free distribution only through fair use as long the actual sellable product isn't distributed along (the executable game, SSBB).

    Still we do understand the concern and philosophy of the kc-mm website and also share them; respecting the people responsible for the content distributed is important and have been working on a credits list. And the current situation is indeed our fault, which on the present day we can apologize for but will be hopefully addressed by our next release.

    We had one previous situation where we failed to properly adress creators of parts of certain piece, if I remember correctly one it was a case with Ivwi and the Proto Meta Knight, due to a severe miscommunication most of the team was unaware that the model wasn't made from scratch and Ivwi did not even know about it until after the model was already released.

    We want to avoid completely those situations in the future not only because it is bad for the team but also to show that we do respect those we collaborate with.

    In case of Thany, she is part of the Project M Dev Team since Roy's development and showed interest of being credited only on the model and the animations she made which was a collaboration between her, Pik and Sdoom, who are also members. We made sure to talk about them both when talking about Roy and its model. She has been inactive, but her work was so important for us, that we'll always be open for her if she wishes.

    Clarifying: The base Thany PSA was heavily modified by many different members during the Roy development since it started in 2011, the PSA file included in PM 3.02 differ greatly from the one available on kc-mm by Thany herself. The moveset file can be considered as hers as well as it can be considered by those other PM Dev Team members.

    For content produced by Project M Dev Team members, if they do not request a direct mention. Crediting the team will do to credit them, they are part of the team after all. It is an inside agreement and we should have talked about before.

    Although being busy is not an excuse, it is indeed detrimental, I for instance have to work on Playtesting, PR (international and on my country), Promotion, Regional Tournament Organizing and Art and many other members have overlapping roles in the team. While I am here answering questions, I cannot be working on a concept art someone in the Art Team is waiting to start on a model or I can't be testing an important experimental build for the next release. So, administrating all of this along with my personal life, meet the internal deadlines and get my sleep schedule to allow me to work properly with members all over the world is incredibly difficult. Development teams usually don't have to deal with PR or most of these, for reference, I've been sleeping at 11 AM and waking up at 18 PM every day since the start of July.

    All members feel those hardships, and we are not paid to go through this, so it's difficult to get certain things organized. As a PR person, I have been working on ways to organize the internal communication and solidify our relation to the community as someone who hears and respects them from Smash Boards, to Reddit, to international Smash Bros. forums and kc-mm.

    I can only ask everyone to forgive us on this, but hopefully it all should be organized by our next release. In the mean time, if you have any content present in the official build of Project M, please contact us and we'll make sure that you will make to the credits list.

    If you don't want to be in the credits but want to use any of your pieces in your art portfolio to get a job or other important things and need a confirmation from us, don't hesitate to contact us via PM'ing the Smash Boards official Project M account or through e-mail.

    On unrelated details, having the game featured in tournaments is not of our influence, it's the choice of organizers and players, we cannot effectively sponsor tournaments as we have no funds to do so.

    The t-shirt campaign sold at that one time was under the responsability of teespring, one or two members helped them as they had free time during that period. The campaign happened due to frequent requests by the community.

    I already have really a lot on my plate (will also have to work on my course completion thesis for the next semester), but I'll be checking kc-mm more often. Thank you for openly calling us out as you didn't feel satisfied before, but I hope you understand that those faults were not intended and although it is of high priority, there are other factors of much higher priority that we must address first. Don't hesitate to remind us of this once some time has passed.
    « Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 01:12:10 AM by FireBall Stars » Logged

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    « Reply #1964 on: July 12, 2014, 11:43:36 PM »


    "Thany made most of Roy's PSA, then SDoom edited it. Guess who gets his name on it."

    This always gets me.

    "Oh my God! PM did an AWESOME job on Roy! They're the best!"

    Meanwhile Thany was working for a year or two to make Roy a reality. Even if she was a part of PM or allowed them to use it (even with saying that she didn't care if she was credited or not), I'd feel that writing a simple line out would be the least I, or anyone could do for her dedication.

    And then there's GoodOldGanon, anyone remember that guy? That's OG for ya' kids.
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