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Author Topic: BrawlVault: Feedback and Updates  (Read 544269 times)
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Sofron
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« Reply #675 on: February 03, 2016, 11:08:39 AM »


I am just a political philosophy phd who has been lurking here for some years now, and even though my modding skill is nothing compared to others, I have become somewhat attached  to the site and the modding community. Thus, seeing as it also looks like a topic within my knowledge,  I feel like saying my own two cents on the matter.

To start with, as it seems, this is an ethical issue (it has to do with the manner we  interact with one another, this case - the site admins on the one hand and the creators of various mods on the other). And as others have word it already, it has to do with common courtesy and what that is.

On the one side  the admins seem to be saying that as long as the submitter mentions the creators name, he may do whatever he likes. In other words, the gesture of collaborating the name of the creator is enough of a courtesy towards the creators. On the other side, many creators and people (plebs like myself), seem to argue that courtesy means more than just a mention of the creators name (how much more exactly will probably differ from person to person).

Personally I can see the point of the admins to try to make sure that every mod has a place on the site. Perhaps my liberal views make me see the reasoning behind it since it seems like a measure against personal biases factoring in which mod should be allowed on the site and which should not. However, contrary to the case of freedom of speech, I don't think such method should be applied to something like an art gallery for example, or in this case modding community, since it can suffocate the creators.

It is true that in some cases an effective 'free-for-all' (which is what the status quo of the site seems to be) can be of help, for instance in reviving a forgotten/lost mod that was abandoned by its creator. Someone finds it on a forum and posts it on BV with the creator's name. No harm done and the  community gained some content. But in other cases it can demotivate the creators from making anything because, let's say, others might find a leak of their content and publish it before the creator actually finishes it the way he thinks. Arguably, the creator lost his drive for finishing his work and the community gained a semi-finished modification from someone who will probably stop publishing anything else (because let's not forget none is paying him for it).

Perhaps it would be a better tactic by the admins of the site to be more flexible in their thinking and rules. Not all cases are the same and the rules should reflect that. Ensuring the creators' consent (wherever possible) can provide a safety net for the creators by letting them know that they can work on their art without worrying about leaks and whatnot. Such rules can nurture the modding community instead of slowly suffocating it.

Anyway, providing (perhaps) a bit of clarity and my own opinion is the only way I can think of helping.  

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Prim8
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« Reply #676 on: February 03, 2016, 11:11:52 AM »


Being a person who has followed Project M for years and even now would love for them to release their models for public use, I still cannot agree with the policy suggested here or by the sounds of it already implemented.

Many of the artists here are the individuals responsible for my urge to learn brawl modding and the reason for my first submission on the Vault. The submission was a simple texture edit, work done from the Project M teams models and inspired by AlGeorgeRomo. The model I was working on however while made by the PMDT was unlike the leaked content expressed as free for individuals to make such edits with proper crediting, heck I even ran my ideas for the recolours past Nano himself.

This is quite a different scenario than what is suggested here which is literally just taking their work, screw the morality. Sure you can use the debate of bringing it all back to Nintendo but what I find most disappointing is that through the years I have seen brawl modding as an often tight knit community of fans supporting their favourite artists and artists collaborating together to create new things and at the centre of this the pillars of the community, the PMDT. How quickly we are willing to throw down our pillars.

Honestly I don't blame the PMDT for not releasing their work, obviously something went down we don't fully understand but also the word ENTITLEMENT comes to mind. The fact that we view ourselves as ENTITLED to their work is absurd, it is their work, sure we may want it, we may even have underhanded ways of getting it, but it is still theirs to give!

If someone told me to take down an edit I made I would take it down but if I knew someone would not want an edit of their work on the vault in the first place I would not put it up in the first place hoping they wouldn't notice or request it taken down. Deep down you all must know this is wrong... If not I am disappointed in the people I thought this community was rooted in...
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nanobuds
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    « Reply #677 on: February 03, 2016, 11:14:42 AM »


    Quote from: Segtendo link=topic=66667.msg1353964#msg1353964I
    think there is proof out that there is beef between them and this forum. Roll Eyes
    I wonder why

    As a matter of fact, we advise... nay, we encourage hackers to beat up their local PMDT friends for their WIP stages and then upload it all on BrawlVault. Our community will then drink the tears and laugh at the awful misfortune of these most respectful hackers taking punches like nerds.

    With admins this childish and petty I think we have reason to dislike it here, Seggy.
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    BullockDS
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    « Reply #678 on: February 03, 2016, 11:16:04 AM »


    So disregarding the debate of ethics of whether it's "right" to upload leaked content without permission (it's not, fyi Smiley ), has anyone advocating for willy-nilly leaking considered that there's a potentially legally fragile nature to this specific leaked content, that could get certain former PMDT in real-life, grown up trouble?

    Oh wait, how presumptuous. Of course not. Y'all are just far too concerned with keeping old vendettas alive and getting your hands on shiny new toys for your Brawl packs to evaluate the circumstances surrounding this content like rational adults. Silly me.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 11:17:25 AM by BullockDS » Logged

    sorcerice
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    « Reply #679 on: February 03, 2016, 11:27:49 AM »


    From an artist's point of view, it'd be a huge hit to my pride when people from the very community I create for release an unfinished work of mine before I officially release it, myself. I spend a lot of time on what I do, and there are only a few I trust to handle my work before its complete release. Having a wip released would make it seem like my standards had dropped when I really wanted to work on the piece for a bit longer. As much as this place is a resource for creators, the advanced creators put so much time into attaining the skills they have, and I think kcmm should respect the creator's property when all they ask is for their work to be taken down.
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    Albafika
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    « Reply #680 on: February 03, 2016, 11:38:49 AM »


    Personally I can see the point of the admins to try to make sure that every mod has a place on the site. Perhaps my liberal views make me see the reasoning behind it since it seems like a measure against personal biases factoring in which mod should be allowed on the site and which should not.
    Spot on.

    It is true that in some cases an effective 'free-for-all' (which is what the status quo of the site seems to be) can be of help, for instance in reviving a forgotten/lost mod that was abandoned by its creator. Someone finds it on a forum and posts it on BV with the creator's name. No harm done and the  community gained some content. But in other cases it can demotivate the creators from making anything because, let's say, others might find a leak of their content and publish it before the creator actually finishes it the way he thinks. Arguably, the creator lost his drive for finishing his work and the community gained a semi-finished modification from someone who will probably stop publishing anything else (because let's not forget none is paying him for it).
    To avoid this, Miacis already stated Large Leader suggested contacting fellow PMDT Team interested in releasing their work in the future and to contact us and we'd extend his deadline to an agreeable lapse of time (Which could be months, so long as it does gets released).

    Do note that we're not allowing people to submit the Project M 3.61 Pack.zip; We're only allowing people to submit use-able character models/texture recolors/edits to the PM leaked models/among other things, not a full pack.

    Disallowing submissions of PM 3.61 models (Like Awakening Roy(?)) would mean disallowing texture recolors/model edits of such models, and I'm not fine with this.

    What the [censored], seriously? You're really encouraging to beat people up? Do you realize how [censored]ed up that is? The Ex-PMDT worked hard on the work they made, and you're encouraging violence? Are you just jealous by the fact Project M is a quality mod and had a quality team, and you didn't get a chance to get on?

    With admins this childish and petty I think we have reason to dislike it here, Seggy.
    Yeah, because he wasn't following HaloedHero's not-serious' part of the reply. Come on guys, stop the mindless bashing.

    From an artist's point of view, it'd be a huge hit to my pride when people from the very community I create for release an unfinished work of mine before I officially release it, myself. I spend a lot of time on what I do, and there are only a few I trust to handle my work before its complete release. Having a wip released would make it seem like my standards had dropped when I really wanted to work on the piece for a bit longer. As much as this place is a resource for creators, the advanced creators put so much time into attaining the skills they have, and I think kcmm should respect the creator's property when all they ask is for their work to be taken down.
    Difference being that this has happened before, and we've removed such WIPs, because you do plan to eventually release your mod (In contrast, we're not sure of who plans on releasing their models on the PMDT).

    I'm not fine with forbidding people from submitting their edits/texture recolors/edited models based on 3.61 files on the Vault.

    Honestly, the situation is a huge mess.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:05:30 PM by Wolfric » Logged


    purpleburd
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    « Reply #681 on: February 03, 2016, 11:48:51 AM »


    I've been a lurker for quite some time, but I feel that I need to break my habit of silence for this issue.  Sofron, Prim8, BullockDS, and sorcerice have said things well. It seems the Admins feel that its the right of the brawl modding community to have any and all customized content, regardless of whatever the original creator wants. Which is very disrespectful and epitomizes an entitlement that is, as Prim8 put it, absurd.  It seems the people at KCMM who want this new rule have stopped thinking past their wanting and didn't stop to consider the rights of creators to their work, the right of those creators to their privacy of work, the recency of P:M's cessation of development and its emotional strife, and maybe the legal fragility that may still exist, as BullockDS put it.  

    So, leaked P:M content should not be be allowed. Only if the original content creator personally uploads it should it be permitted. Regarding any secondary recolors/modifications to those models and content there must be explicit permission from the original creator.  
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 11:57:20 AM by purpleburd » Logged

    Miacis
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    « Reply #682 on: February 03, 2016, 12:10:49 PM »


    Man, we should move this thread to the Introductions board. Look at all those new people.

    With admins this childish and petty I think we have reason to dislike it here, Seggy.
    It's hard to take this matter seriously with the amount of theatrics some people are pulling off. If you folks are that intent of making me the villain of a Saturday morning cartoon, I might just as well humor you and play my role.

    Quote
    So lets say that the PMDT have been working in the kitchen all day and have just produced a fresh tray of cookies and not wanting to wait for such cookies to cool or even waiting to have one offered to me I stealthily snatch away a cookie.
    You stole a cookie by making an exact of copie of the cookie that's still in their possession. Then when you showed the cookies to someone else and told them you didn't make the cookie. Then the original cook came and showed his baked cookies and what you did is you removed your half-baked ones from display.
    And let's not forget the important part. The original guy? He stole his cookies from someone else in the first place!

    That's a complicated kind of theft! And that seems super nice of the "thief" to their "victim" to go through all that. I dunno about the US, but here, the thieves just take your [censored]. Then it's not yours anymore, it's theirs.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:14:08 PM by Miacis » Logged

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    Samusfan1
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    « Reply #683 on: February 03, 2016, 12:22:10 PM »


    I try to avoid this place for the most part, but I just wanted to chime in and say the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify releasing things that are not theirs is ridiculous.

    Maybe if you guys were patient and kind, the PMDT would eventually release their content for us all to enjoy. I can only hope they still decide to do this despite you entitled jerks being, well, entitled jerks. I feel like all of this would be a non-issue if you guys would just wait.

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    Albafika
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    « Reply #684 on: February 03, 2016, 12:26:22 PM »


    I try to avoid this place for the most part, but I just wanted to chime in and say the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify releasing things that are not theirs is ridiculous.

    Maybe if you guys were patient and kind, the PMDT would eventually release their content for us all to enjoy. I can only hope they still decide to do this despite you entitled jerks being, well, entitled jerks. I feel like all of this would be a non-issue if you guys would just wait.


    Thanks for your constructive criticism. Definitely the correct way to contribute to the discussion at hand.
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    Prim8
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    « Reply #685 on: February 03, 2016, 12:33:00 PM »


    I deleted my posts and I apologize for getting heated but I am seriously upsetted by what I see as the disrespect being allotted to members of the PMDT, I let my feelings get out of hand as this is an emotion charged chat but nevertheless I remain absolute in the fact that the suggested policy is wrong.
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    Vinegar
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    « Reply #686 on: February 03, 2016, 12:37:52 PM »


    I know im not really of any sort of authority on this, but i would just like to throw in my two cents


    -uploading leaked content from project m by anyone but their original creator should not be allowed on the site, even if there were similar situations previously, I'm willing to bet the author isn't really happy with that unless it's with permission, and really shouldn't be encouraged in my opinion,  derivative work could always be uploaded after the original is officially submitted by its creator, so that shouldn't be an excuse to allow leaked content.

    -even if the content doesn't hold any legal danger, it should still be rightful only for the creator of said content to upload his work, even if proper credit is given, and even if the designs of the characters or stages or any other sort of hack doesn't technically belong to them, they should at least have the right to release their hard work at their own pace, without anything or anyone pressuring them to release it, the ex-pmdt gave us so much joy and generated so much hype that i know i myself cant just ignore, i feel like we at least owe this to them, but honestly this is supposed to be a community, we're supposed to help each other out, even if this wasn't about the pmdt i wouldn't agree this.

    This isn't supposed to be directed at anyone in particular, but I would  just like everyone to consider this

    Also, even if i was pro-leaked content on the site, some of the patterns of speech ive seen here doesnt really encourage me to agree with it....
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:45:18 PM by vinegar » Logged

    Cynapse
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    « Reply #687 on: February 03, 2016, 12:43:23 PM »


    I dunno about the US, but here, the thieves just take your [censored]. Then it's not yours anymore, it's theirs.
    You missed the point that you're comparing theft to not-theft.
    Seems to me that there is no difference to you, cultural differences or no. Look, you wouldn't be okay with me waltzing into your home, taking up residence and eating your food that you worked for that's supposed to keep you alive, would you? I certainly hope not.
    the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify releasing things that are not theirs is ridiculous.
    Oh don't worry it's okay so long as you mention the creator's name even if they didn't give consent and were totally against it—the newly rewritten rules say so!
    Hell might as well just call everything on here yours, because we was you and you was us!  Police
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:44:37 PM by Cynapse » Logged

    Layell
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    « Reply #688 on: February 03, 2016, 12:47:59 PM »


    As much as I would love to see some of the PMDT content released, I think we as fellow creators should respect the wishes of those who have put in a huge amount of effort.

    I'm sure perhaps some content may accidentally pop-up here and there (if it hasn't already). But if it's requested to be taken down just respect it and take it down.

    Perhaps treating the PMDT with some good-will would make them more willing to work with the greater Brawl modding community, think of it that way.
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    Sandfall
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    « Reply #689 on: February 03, 2016, 12:50:12 PM »


    It's hard to take this matter seriously with the amount of theatrics some people are pulling off. If you folks are that intent of making me the villain of a Saturday morning cartoon, I might just as well humor you and play my role.

    Those "theatrics" are just people expressing their frustration at being stonewalled or ignored at every turn. "Civil discussion" goes both ways. If you want a polite discussion, you're gonna have to throw us a bone or two here.
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