Title: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on April 23, 2012, 04:31:53 PM Hello KC:MM!
This is a tutorial that will give tips about creating quality rigs and model imports for Brawl. I will not go over the basics of rigging; there is already a tutorial for that. This tutorial will cover the following: Part 1: Aligning the model with the bones Part 2: Rigging tips Part 3: Fixing model quality Part 4: Reducing File Size Part 5: Special Effects for your models What you need -3ds Max 2010-2011 (this tutorial uses 2010) -The latest Brawl Box -Basic knowledge of the use of 3ds Max and Brawl Box -Patience -Swag Other Stuff -I will be rigging Brotherhood Ezio Auditore during the tutorial. Other models will vary, and may need different adjustments that this one. -If you have questions regarding these tips, feel free to ask. Don't spam me with PM's though. -NEVER Move or Scale bones during the rigging process. That will screw over your model. -This is my way of making imports better. There may be other ways and opinions, but this is how I do it. Part 1: Aligning the model with the bones Part 2: Rigging Tips Other parts coming soon! Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Boygos on April 23, 2012, 05:09:50 PM Looks good so far! Alternatively, you can press F3 to view wireframe.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Kamina on April 23, 2012, 09:00:21 PM This will be very useful for people who want to get into importing, especially because it looks like this guide will be more detailed then other importing guides.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on April 23, 2012, 09:30:01 PM I plan to go deeper into different techniques for rigging, as well as ways to just overall make rigging easier.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: FallenKing on April 23, 2012, 11:25:58 PM Just finished reading everything, and I gotta say, this really helps. I never used the wireframe view, and I never really thought about lining up the bones like that. That'd probably explain why I could never perfectly blend even the simplest areas like the elbow and knee-caps. lol
So for the fingers, the finger bones generally go half-way up the fingers? Oh, and the lower finger-bones line up with the knuckles, right? I'm thinking about borrowing another model's hands to properly rig Phoenix Wright's hands/fingers. lol I'm looking forward to the next part of this guide. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on April 24, 2012, 05:50:49 AM yeah, the 2nd finger joints go about midway in the fingers, make sure you group enough verts around the joints
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Ninka_kiwi on April 24, 2012, 01:55:21 PM This may seem stupid for me to ask, but we are now able to change the boneset of a model slightly?
For instance, I am rigging meta ridley over charizard right now and charizard as very wide seperation between his leg bones, So I coulde just move the leg bones to ridleys legs? Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on April 24, 2012, 02:36:59 PM This may seem stupid for me to ask, but we are now able to change the boneset of a model slightly? Heres what I would do.For instance, I am rigging meta ridley over charizard right now and charizard as very wide seperation between his leg bones, So I coulde just move the leg bones to ridleys legs? In BrawlBox, delete all the leg bones. Then, make a new bone branching off the HipN bone for each leg, naming it something that the animations won't affect. Then, branch off bones from that new bone you made, and re-construct the original bone tree... It's hard to explain... but it's what I'm doing for Mewtwo's tail. PM Beyond about it... he did it for Pac Man. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Infernape on April 24, 2012, 03:45:36 PM Ah nice! :happy: ill be waiting until it gets done
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Kamina on April 24, 2012, 03:51:49 PM Part 5: Special Effects for your models How did I not notice this! I'll definitely be using this part. (I know most of the other parts to rigging fairly well..) Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Nasca Corp on April 25, 2012, 02:38:47 PM How did I not notice this! I'll definitely be using this part. (I know most of the other parts to rigging fairly well..) Me too ... I want the shiny texture ... Thanks, cause i'm a noob with riggin, this is helpfull Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on April 25, 2012, 06:38:16 PM Me too ... I will cover how to do that. I plan to finish most of the tutorial this weekendI want the shiny texture ... Thanks, cause i'm a noob with riggin, this is helpfull Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: FallenKing on April 29, 2012, 08:10:37 PM How should I have the shoulders lined up? I had to really stretch out Evil Ryu's shoulders to match Ganondorf's long arms, so I ended up with this:
and here's what I have after I finished blending: Is this a problem with aligning the model with the skeleton, or is it because I blended it incorrectly? Is it both? Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on April 29, 2012, 09:14:12 PM make the shoulders a bit wider... also try blending the stretched verts to the BustN
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: FallenKing on May 14, 2012, 10:33:35 PM Do you plan on updating this eventually? I would definitely appreciate some more rigging guidelines, especially for shoulders. I also usually have problems rigging legs (not the knees), especially when you have clothing or some sort of material covering up a portion of the leg, and you need to rig parts of the clothing to move with the leg.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: nanobuds on May 15, 2012, 07:54:08 PM I will update it probably this summer when school is out. during the week, I only have about 30 minutes per day to work on hacking stuff, and its easier to complete a section all at once than during it day-by-day
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips!! Post by: Boygos on May 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM I will update it probably this summer when school is out. during the week, I only have about 30 minutes per day to work on hacking stuff, and its easier to complete a section all at once than during it day-by-day This su,,er you should do a rigging School. I'm in for that.Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 07, 2012, 10:09:13 AM Updated
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: Ninka_kiwi on June 07, 2012, 04:42:04 PM Wow I never thought to totally rig the model to bust N then rig the individual parts...
Nice update! This will surely make cloud awesome once I'm done with his model! Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 08, 2012, 09:32:22 AM If you don't mind me asking, but how to get the various wireframe colors in 3DS studio max 2010? It would make lining up the bones a lot easier than the default white color.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 08, 2012, 10:38:49 AM Its always white when the polygon is selected... nothing much i can do about that
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 08, 2012, 01:32:08 PM For some reason, after I align the bones using the Edit Mesh command (and keep in mind that I make sure that bones are selected for the Skin mod), I can't move the bones with the model, it doesn't move at all! WTF?
I can add the skin mod and bones and move them just fine, but it's only AFTER I start messing with the mesh the bones no longer move the polygon. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 08, 2012, 09:56:22 PM Make sure Edit Mesh is below Skin on the modifier list... also make sure that the Edit Mesh isnt open and in-use
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 08, 2012, 11:03:04 PM Make sure Edit Mesh is below Skin on the modifier list... also make sure that the Edit Mesh isnt open and in-use So I pretty much line the bones up with the model, add the Skin modifier, THEN add the Edit Mesh modifier? And by the "Edit Mesh not being open", I simply click on an empty space to exit the mesh mode and then rotate a bone? Edit 11:45 PM New problem! Okay, so I notice that I can only move the bones with the polygon when I turn off the Edit Mesh mod (the light bulb icon), but this reverts all the vertex changes I made, making this a real PITA to deal with. Why can't I see the changes I made to the vertices while I rotate the bones? The tutorial pictures clearly show both mods on while the ShoulderJ bone is being rotated. :srs: Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 09, 2012, 12:15:41 PM Nooooo.
1. Edit the mesh so it fits the bones 2. THEN add the skin modifier If the Edit Mesh modifier is in use, then the skin modifier wont work. By in-use, the verts for the Edit Mesh modifier appear. You can always edit the mesh after you skin it, but the Skin modifier must always be on top of the modifier list. Look at the modifier box in the tutorial pics. the Skin is always on top. and not both modifiers were on. They were expanded, but the Edit Mesh wasnt in use... its hard to explain over type. I would love to try to record one of my rigs, but I just dont have the time, nor the computer capability. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 09, 2012, 01:02:13 PM So, in essence I can make the changes to the skin mod (rotating the bones) and then I can fix the vertices with the Edit Mesh? If recording an issue, Camstudio would work just fine, it's not very demanding on the CPU. I'm still trying to figure out how to deactivate the Edit Mesh mod, since clicking on the light bulb icon undoes all the work I did on the polygon itself, hence my earlier confusion.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 09, 2012, 05:00:22 PM if you rotate a bone with the skin mod, you cant edit the mesh without the rotation returning to normal
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 09, 2012, 05:55:53 PM if you rotate a bone with the skin mod, you cant edit the mesh without the rotation returning to normal Ah bollocks. I'm so confused about the whole mesh mod thing. What did you mean by "You can always edit the mesh after you skin it"? You mean, after lining up the bones? I did that and it still doesn't allow me to rotate them to where they need to go. How are you supposed to keep the changes you make to the Mesh Mod and rotate the bones using the Skin Mod, while keeping the vital vertex changes intact when you export as a .dae file? That's what isn't making any sense to me. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 09, 2012, 10:31:55 PM Okay. Look at the pics in the tutorial. See the modifier list?
The skin is always on top. Below it is always other modifiers. ONLY add the skin once the model is ready to be rigged. However, after rigging, you can still edit the mesh. DONT add a new Edit Mesh modifier. the Skin mod must be on top of the list. If you edit the mesh after you apply the skin, then just select the Edit Mesh mod below the Skin mod, and make your edits. While you are making edits, the rotations you made will go away. The scene will always display whatever is on the top of the mod list. However, if you activate a mod below the one on top, then the one on top (this case the skin) then it wont show. When you add the Bones to the Skin modifier, you cant rotate bone to have them fit to the model. You must delete the Skin mod in order to edit bones to fit to the model. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 09, 2012, 11:59:08 PM If I sounded demanding or impatient, I apologize for acting in such an asinine way.
To recapitulate, I open the model I want to make an import over, then I - Delete the polygons of the original Brawl model - Merge it with the new polygon and line it up with the bones - Hi-light all the polygons on the new model and add the Edit Mesh mod - I make all necessary changes to the vertices that need fine tuning - Once I'm done making all necessary changes, I add the skin mod - After adding that, I add all the model bones so I can rig the model And if I understand correctly, having both Skin and Edit Mesh mods on simultaneously creates a conflict. Having just the Mesh mod on temporarily hides all the rotated bones in the Animation Slider, click it off and I see the changes I made in the Skin Mod. Essentially, I simply add the Mesh Mod and then the Skin Mod so the Skin is on top of the Mesh. I can assume that I need to just have the Skin mod when I export as a .dae file. Again, it sounds to me that the Edit Mesh just temporarily hides the animation rotations, but doesn't effect negatively when exported. Man I hope I got something right in my recap... Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 11, 2012, 09:57:55 AM Yes, this is correct.
When I said add bones, i meant to the skin mod. you got that, right? Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: Boygos on June 11, 2012, 10:23:26 AM (http://i.imgur.com/u5GJK.png)
still needs a little editing, but I think I have finally conquered the elbow. yes. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 11, 2012, 10:30:22 AM ([url]http://i.imgur.com/u5GJK.png[/url]) still needs a little editing, but I think I have finally conquered the elbow. yes. The point of bending still needs a little smoothing.... but close :P Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: FallenKing on June 11, 2012, 11:13:53 AM ([url]http://i.imgur.com/u5GJK.png[/url]) still needs a little editing, but I think I have finally conquered the elbow. yes. Looks good to me. I can hardly imagine anyone noticing the difference in-game. :P Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 11, 2012, 11:22:45 AM In-game, its not noticeable. But it aint perfect :P
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 14, 2012, 04:33:32 PM While I'm certainly getting quite an understanding to how one actually rigs a model, I had a question regarding vertex editing. Obviously, due to the hierarchy of both mesh and skin mods, it creates a conflict with the skin modifier (animations/bent joints are hidden) in 3DS Studio Max. What I want to know is, when it comes to exporting, how are you supposed to export the changes you made to the vertex, much less have those changes show up in Brawl Box?
Edit 4:43PM - Never mind...talk about PEBKAC. Seems that I disable both mods, start with turning on the mesh mod (on the bottom of the hierarchy), then I turn on the skin mesh and it exports just fine. Boy is my face red. Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 14, 2012, 07:54:38 PM Lol, dont worry about it bro. We all had to start somewhere ;)
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 20, 2012, 10:25:10 AM So, while I feel that I have gained a fair understanding of rigging by this point in time, there's something not quite right here. So I rigged each section of the model as per instructions and I get to the point where Brawl Box imports without a hitch (always a good sign). Right now I'm working on importing Krystal over Peach, but there's a problem; the arms are jagged despite rigging them from ShoulderN -> ShoulderJ -> ArmN -> HandN, in that order. the BustN distortion I know how to fix, butt the arms and the feet?
That I know will take a century for me to figure out, but I was checking out the model wireframe and noticed that around the area where LShoulderJ or RShoulderJ are located, there's a surprising lack of vertices around that area. What's the verdict, should I give up on this particular model and try to find one somewhere else? I must point out that the latter isn't a choice since The Models Resource has nothing pertaining to Krystal from Star Fox Adventures. Link to file I'm working on (3DS Studio Max 2011) http://www.mediafire.com/?5c1idp1k312m7im (http://www.mediafire.com/?5c1idp1k312m7im) Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 20, 2012, 10:30:52 AM Rig to the ArmJ, not ArmN
Lack of verts do cause issues Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 20, 2012, 10:55:57 AM CRAP! I meant to say "ArmJ" not "ArmN". Sorry about that. Have you had a chance to look at the model to see why it's so jacked up?
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 20, 2012, 11:00:28 AM I'll try later today (im on my phone right now)
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 21, 2012, 07:37:20 PM Created a thread with more detailed info about the issue:
http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=46478.0 (http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=46478.0) Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: LeftyGreenMario on June 24, 2012, 04:01:35 PM It sounds like dumb question, but how do you vertex edit the model after you finish rigging? Do I add another edit mesh modifier? After rigging, I noticed a hole that can be easily fixed by moving the vertex.
By the way, thanks for the tips. I can never get those elbows to look right. However, the blending option sort of fails when there are two vertices in one spot that "zipper" the model. If I don't rig them to equal weights, a hole appears after bending the joint. I hope you can provide us more detailed information soon! Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: Exorcist on June 24, 2012, 04:34:36 PM Right click the Skin modifier and check Retain Sub Attributes (I don't remember the exact name). Then right click it again, select cut, move as many vertices as you want, and right click Paste Instanced.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: the_randomizer on June 29, 2012, 07:48:55 PM Yesiree looks like I'm going to have to start from scratch. Lovely.
Title: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: nanobuds on June 29, 2012, 09:23:21 PM Yesiree looks like I'm going to have to start from scratch. Lovely. whyyyyyTitle: Re: Rigging and Model Importing Tips: Updated June 7th Post by: Rooftop Sword Master on April 23, 2018, 08:19:53 PM How do you rig the faces? I model imported brawl Snake's body to brawl Ike but I kept all of Ike's faces. Unfortunately it seems I have to re rig them all...
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