Thanks for the feedback, secretchaos1! A lot of Lloyd's animations will be revamped in the next version, so you don't need to worry about that.
I love your suggestion for Sonic Thrust! I think that's exactly what it needs to be much more useful!
I agree with you on the standard combo, so that'll be reworked.
Previous Lloyd teams had problems with this model and throws, but I'll give it a shot nonetheless!
I've probably been too close to this project for too long to be thrown off by how Tempest/Omega Tempest works on the ground and how Psi Tempest works in the air, but I may look into changing it since it seems to bother a lot of people.
Are you using the FitLloyd No SFX pac? I made that version basically because of the issue you're having.
I could try to port the BrawlEx GFX, but, at the moment, my expertise is pretty much limited editing movesets themselves.
Again, I really appreciate your comments. 7.5 was my big playability update, and after a while, you'll see a polished Lloyd that'll really knock your socks off!
I too, would love to see Lloyd become an iconic Brawl hack! I like the idea of D-air being stronger (I'm a Tales fan, so I want to see Lloyd dominate everybody), but I'm not sure if we could make it feel like Beast while still being both viable and balanced. Considering that, the idea seems sort of Brawl Minus-y to me; and a Brawl Minus "balanced" Lloyd could be a lot of fun.
I don't have any objections to doing a PM balanced Lloyd, I just need to know specifically how their coding interacts with Lloyd's coding. The last time I went at it with my usual methods, the results were frustrating and underwhelming.
So I've never played Tales of Symphonia, I have played Abyss, but not Symphonia. That being said, you've made me interested with this moveset.
I highly recommend you play Tales of Symphonia, it's my favorite game of the Tales series- in fact, they recently came out with an HD remastered version on PS3.
The rapid fire N B is good since there's a cap. But it's hard to fire off in rapid succession since there seems to be a timing aspect. Since Brawl is fast paced I feel it should be easier to do the 3 shot combo.
I didn't edit the N B's timing from Lloyd 7.3, but I may look into it now. In this version, the easiest way to launch all three projectiles is to tap B once, then hold it (tap, hold).
The Side B is underwhelming. I know how it works, but it's just a bit... strange?
I mostly agree with you on the Side B. The development team on early versions of Lloyd wanted it to be like a fourth jab, and as such, made it pretty weak. In trying to make it more usable, I added quite a bit of shield damage and a sweetspot at the tip of Lloyd's sword that has pretty significant knockback growth. One aspect of this move that's easy to miss is if you use Demon Fang (N B), then Sonic Thrust (Side B), it's significantly faster- and often connects with the launching hitbox.
UpB... Feels weird since it brings you forward when grounded... but upwards when airborne. Moves that are different while in the air are still typically sending someone the same direction.
Fair point. It is a bit unorthodox for a move to have completely different uses on the ground and in the air: comboing/approaching and recovering, respectively. But since Lloyd needs both of those, I'm not sure there's any way to reconcile the two versions of the move.
True, Down B is Lloyd's primary way to get a KO before 200%, but because of this, I don't want to nerf it. I totally understand your point about the Side B being overshadowed/devalued because by this, but this time, I decided to err on having too few easy KO moves rather than too many. I suppose I'll have to get more playtesters' opinions on balancing before any future releases I do.
As a purist, my biggest issue is the lack of grabs.
I agree that a Brawl character needs grabs. (Quick story time) I recall lurking on an earlier Lloyd team's progress thread a long while ago, and there was one point where they declared that their Lloyd-s would not have grabs. After becoming acquainted with the peculiar behavior of the Lloyd model this moveset uses, I understand why they made that decision. However, this project has helped me develop a wealth of "creative" glitch-fixing techniques, so it's very likely I will give grabs a shot in the future.
I'd say it's something to do with PM's changes to wolf in code or something that interfere with Lloyd.
That makes sense. And if I had to guess, the Project M team will Melee-ize the entire Brawl roster and restore the last of the Fallen Five before they even consider adding in other characters.
Either way I'm going to be testing him out on BrawlEx when I have the chance.
Let me know what you think! If you're using the BrawlEx SFX version, please be sure you have the updated moveset file. ShadowRockShoota fixed it so it works with the Lloyd SFX over Raquaza hack.
I originally intended to release a Project M version with the pack I just put out. However, something about Project M's coding must disagree with Lloyd. During my PSAing process, I made a Lloyd (otherwise identical to a test version right before the release, but) with Project M-like attributes, but when loaded into the game, he had a bunch of glitches out of nowhere, including some of the same glitches I had so painstakingly fixed in 7.5, as well as a couple new ones.
If you were to load 7.5 into Project M, you would notice the following errors
- Gravity wreaks havoc on Tempest, it goes too low too fast. - Jump part of Final Smash stays on the ground. Again, gravity - Omega Tempest goes to high for this game - Ledge attack makes him go to fall (was not broken in 7.5, or 7.3 for that matter) - Ledge jump makes him go to fall (was not broken in 7.5 or 7.3) - Polygon explosion when thrown from Wario's Chomp (first time this has arisen) - Demonic Circle is too slow for P:M. There's no tripping so it doesn't work.
Honestly, it would probably be an easier glitch-fixing project than going 7.3 to 7.5, but it would also require me to become much more familiar with Project M's mechanics. And after all the time I spent refining 7.5, I don't have the energy to fix a Project M version at the moment. Not saying I won't ever, but don't hold your breath.
Hi everyone, thanks for stopping by my PSA thread. With the release of my update on the Lloyd project, I decided to make a convenient place for people to give feedback on it. This thread will also show progress on some other projects I'm working on.
Projects:
Lloyd Irving 7.5 (Released)
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=205741 To be honest, I made only minor changes to this moveset. However, I did make major improvements to playability and greatly reduced the number of glitches with the moveset and model.
Glitches fixed (The main focus of Lloyd 7.5)
- Scabbard doesn't go strange directions when Lloyd moves. - Lloyd's polygons no longer explode (not after using Sword Rain, Not when being grabbed by Snake, Falcon or Ganon- never (that I could activate) - No longer warps when he's knocked down on certain surfaces (Shadow Moses Island, Onett, Hyrule Castle 64) - No longer warps when he uses Sword Rain on some surfaces (especially slopes) - Can dodge from ledge properly - No longer is suspended helplessly in midair if ground moves from underneath him landing from Rising Falcon. - Demon Fang appears even if Lloyd is near a wall with his back to it. - MotionEtc no longer crashes BrawlBox's Advanced Model Viewer. - Fixed lighting on model. (No more flashing and drastic color changes on Halberd, New Pork, Luigi's Mansion, etc.)
PSA Changes from 7.3 (Secondary goal of 7.5)
Because nearly all of the animations are the same/work to the same effect, I don't really see th point of putting pictures here. tl;dr of moveset changes: more hitboxes hit, has fully functional Final Smash, hold B during UpB to use Omega Tempest. Comprehensive changes
S-Smash: Hitboxes on Sword Rain Alpha and Sword Rain Beta reworked to hit more reliably. U-Smash: Tiger Blade hitboxes begin sooner (frame 6->2), downward strike trajectory modified to prevent infinite comboing. (270->285) Tiger Rage hitboxes modified to connect more consistently. F-Air: Damage 10->9 U-Air: Damage 10->8. After 13 frames damage decreases to 4 D-Air: Damage 10->9
N Special: Demon fang projectile now moves at ground level S Special: Sonic Thrust/Super Sonic Thrust deal greater knockback when connecting with hitbox at the end of Lloyd's sword. Increased shield damage. S SpecialAir: Damage 24->15 U Special: If B is pressed before midpoint in Tempest, Lloyd transitions into Omega Tempest. Uses refreshing Special offensive collision instead of looped offensive collisions. D Special: Beast now interruptible when the animation ends midair.
Final Smash: Fully Functional. Lloyd's Exsphere flashes, stunning nearby enemies. (If the stun wears off, they're held near Lloyd by wind hitboxes- wind reaches approx half the width of Brinstar). Lloyd slams the Eternal Sword to the ground, activating magical shock hitboxes until he deals the final blow.
Last note on Lloyd, it's sort of difficult to take pictures of the absence of glitches, so if anyone has the equipment and is willing to make a video showcasing Lloyd 7.5, I would greatly appreciate it.
Any feedback on the moveset is welcome!
Psychokinetic Asthmatic - Over Ness (In progress)
A moveset of the only Mother series main protagonist yet to be represented in Smash Bros! I had been toying with this idea for a while, even wrote out a few ideas for a moveset, then suddenly, there was a slew of Ninten textures, color packs and the like uploaded to the Vault, seeing as no one else seems to be working on this, I took it as a sign (if someone is working on this and I don't know about it, let's collab!).
Moveset Concept
Because Ninten is physically very similar to Ness, Ness will be the perfect base for the moveset. However, because Ness and Ninten fought differently (the presence or absence of offensive PSI) that will keep Ninten from being a clone of Ness. Ninten will move slower and have less jumping ability that Ness because his asthma reduces his endurance. It would be difficult to have a character represntative of Mother without any PSI, so Ninten will find clever ways to use his Assist PSI to his advantage (4-thD Slip, anyone?) Ninten's unique trait will be a PSI buff system. Much like he used Assist PSI to boost his stats in Mother, he will have the ability to boost his stats in Brawl.
Moveset
Note: All moves are subject to change
A: Punch (unchanaged from Ness) AA: Ness' Attack13 Kick AAA: Quick swing from bat (Ness' AttackS4 at 2x speed)
Dash Attack: Ninten rushes forward and hits target with his bat (currently uses Ike's AttackDash anim)
F-tilt: Ness' Attack13 Kick- has sweetspot similar Ness' B-air. Working on dmg%
U-tilt: Ninten creates a sparkle over his head that bounces targets straight up at set knockback. Good for juggling. 2% dmg (Ness' SpecialNFire anim)
D-tilt: 4th-D Slip/Dimensional Slip- Ninten creates a sparkle in front of him, shifting the dimensions at that spot, if it connects, opponents lose their footing and find themselves fallen on their backside and facing the wrong way. 5% dmg, 100% trip rate, cape effect. (Lucario's AttackS4 anim)
F-Smash: Ness' F-smash, but slower and more powerful. 18-24% uncharged, depending on sweetspot. (Ness AttackS4 x0.89 frame speed)
U-Smash: Ninten uses telekinesis to rapidly spin his bat over his head, then sends it upward to knock foes away. working on dmg% (Custom animation)
D-Smash: Ninten uses telekinesis to make his bat revolve around his feet (with high tripping percentage) before he raises the bat back up to knock foes away. working on dmg% (Custom animation)
N-Air: A simple sex kick. Since Mother was a simpler game than Earthbound, it makes sense of Ninten to have simpler movements than Ness. 5-7% dmg (Mario's N-air anim)
F-Air: Ninten swings his bat over his head. Has normal 361 degree hitbox and also has spike sweetspot. 12-15% dmg (tweaked Ness' Swing4 anim)
B-Air: Ninten kicks backwards to launch foes for a fairly strong hit. 9% dmg (uses Fox's B-Air anim)
U-Air: Headbutt upward. It seems to be a convention for Mother character's U-Air attacks to be a headbutt. Ninten conforms. uses Lucas' AttackAirHi anim, but is faster and does less damage. 4% dmg. Can hit the same opponent twice in one short hop.
D-Air: Again with simplicity, Ness' D-air from Smash64/Project M. Spike. does 9-12% dmg (Project M Ness D-Air anim)
Grabs/throws: The only one I plan to change at this point is Down throw (because Ninten doesn't have PK Fire), and then I'll only replace it with Lucas' Down Throw and likely change the trajectory/effects.
Specials (I'm going out of the usual order because Neutral B takes a bit of explaining):
Side-B: Hypnosis- Ninten points his finger and a sparkle appears putting the target to sleep. This is a very slow, high-risk/high-reward attack. If you can line up the attack 53 frames (nearly a full second) in advance, Ninten can put his foes to sleep for quite a long time. Easily long enough to get in position and fully charge a Forward Smash. 8% dmg (Custom anim)
UpB: Teleportation- On the ground, Ninten will run for a bit, plowing through foes in his way, then after a timer (or B is pressed), teleport in the direction the control stick is pushed. If Ninten takes damage while he's running, he'll go to a vulnerable ''burnt'' animation. In this animation, he'll have super armor for about 45 frames (so you can see the almost Easter Egg animation), but he won't be able to move for about 70 frames, so he'll be just as vulnerable as he looks. In the air, Ninten will do another jump before he teleports in the direction the control stick indicates. Like Sheik's. (I haven't decided whether Ninten should be as vulnerable during the jump as he is on the ground)
Down-B: Powershield- Ninten will use the same ''shield'' model as Ness or Lucas' PSI Magnet (I might recolor it), but Ninten's won't absorb projectiles. Rather, it will deflect them. For the first few frames of Powershield, Ninten will be intangible and produce an offensive collision. A lot like Wolf's Deflector. Unlike Wolf's deflector, Ninten will have 15% Heavy Armor on his ''holding the shield'' animation.
Beyond here are the things I haven't started coding yet and am more open to suggestions on.
Neutral B: ''PSI...'' - Ninten does a long ''charging'' animation- planned to be around 300 frames/5 seconds, and based a button input, boosts one of his stats (or uses LifeUp). As far as I know, Float Variable are the most efficient way to acheive this effect.
-Nothing pressed: LifeUp- Ninten will recover 4-7%- percent recovered will be selected by Roll a Die event.
-A pressed: OffenseUp- Ninten's physical attacks become markedly stronger. For example, Jab does 2%, with OffenseUp active, it will deal 4%. Normally F-Smash does 18-24%, with OffenseUp, it will deal 25-35% uncharged. Effect will only last for a few attacks, exactly how many depending on what attack is used. I'll use Float Variable to set up a ''point system.'' OffenseUp will give Ninten 50 ''points,'' using a jab will expend 5 ''points,'' an aerial will expend 10, and an F-Smash will use 20. (Referencing Wolfric/Albafika's Cloud Strife's Final Smash) I haven't decided whether points should be spent if the attack misses.
-Shield (L/R/Z) pressed: DefenseUp- Set a Float Variable to give Ninten 5 ''points.'' 1 point is spent every time Ninten enters any of his DamageFly animations- these activate coding to use the Add/Subtract Momentum event to significantly reduce Ninten's flying speed and change his subaction to his regular fall.
-Jump (X/Y/Up on Control Stick) pressed: QuickUp- Ninten gets Cancel-on-Connect for all of his moves for about 20 seconds and faster running speed. Will use a Float Variable to set a timer for how long the effect will last. (Referencing Eldrain's Zero's Final Smash). Not 100% sure of this button input.
Final Smash: Brain Cyclone- I couldn't bear to have another PK Starstorm. But keeping with Mother-in-Smash tradition, this is still a move that Ninten never actually used. The effect will be a lot like the Avatar Ness PSA's Final Smash (Large wind hitboxes and some damaging collisions), except I'll make the GFX very flashy, so that it not only shocks your brain, but sends it into a cyclone. I'm open to feedback and ideas, especially on the latter portion.
Mysterious mystery PSA of mystery
Curious, aren't you? This is going to be a PSA of a character who's recently had a game come out and has another one on the way soon. Details? Unfortunately, I have a thing where I don't like to tease people with what I'm working on until I have a full idea of what I'm doing. But you can help! The one piece I'm missing is an idea for an Up Aerial attack that a realistic human can do. By realistic human, I mean similar physical build to Snake. Since, you read all this, I'll reward you with a hint:
the moveset is going over Snake and some of this character's moves have likened to "some kind of judo".
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