You mean like this?

(fast forward to 0:20)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JydsWExYu4I" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JydsWExYu4I</a>

You want that strong of an effect on Snake's cigarette hitbox? >_>

My memory was faulty.  It should be about 1/4 that strong if that.  You were right to judge...

I agree with all that except for the damage bit. 12% damage is way too much - the box only does 2%, and Luigi's down taunt only does 1%. We need to keep it in line with those, since it is a taunt we're making here. I'm thinking 3% fire damage.

That's why I said at most.  I'm still pushing for a rest attack like thing, but that would be pretty broken.  And by rest attack like thing, I mean the original Brawl rest attack that never actually KO'd.  Just that same sort of trajectory and damage, but fiery.

Of course, there's still this obstacle in the way of the Smoking+ taunt:

Second of all, we don't know what items can be replaced by the cigarette yet. That's a big factor - if only useful or well-loved items will work, it's not really worth sacrificing them just to give the Smoking taunt a texture and a hitbox.

Without a visible cigarette texture, we're stuck with the basic Smoking taunt.

I'm loving the idea to use one of the food items.  That would be non-controversial, easy as hell to edit, and won't take anything away that will be missed.  But again, it all comes down to what will work...

[we]

Another idea is for the taunt to be of variable length: Snake could continue smoking indefinitely until a certain button is pressed or a certain amount of time passes, at which point he tosses the cigarette. If Snake smokes for more than a second or two, he could begin to take 1% damage repeatedly until he stops, just like in MGS: tTS. If Snake's smoking is interrupted by an attack, the cigarette could either harmlessly disappear, or drop straight down, possibly hurting an advancing opponent (this would probably be cheap for a taunt - better to keep it harmless if hit).

I think this idea sounds great, if the loop/everything else is possible to code. It gives the taunt a neat flair to have it damage Snake; yet it gives a non-damaging alternative to the taunt.

While it would make the taunt unique, it would not really be practical unless you're holding on to the cigarette for a reason... Such as waiting for just the right moment to flick it at a recovering opponent for a Cig KO. >.>

I would only be in favor of implementing this bit if the cigarette gets a hitbox, which probably isn't going to happen since vBrawlers want a plain, no-tricks Smoking taunt. If the cig doesn't have a hitbox, there's no advantage to holding on to the cig for any longer - it's only going to damage Snake.

Whether we give the cigarette a hitbox or not depends on a few things: Will players of Brawl+ and Project: Melee mind if we give the cig a hitbox? Or would they prefer a no-hitbox version like I'm sure the vBrawl and BB crowd will? Brawl- players would probably welcome the hitbox, if they have the cig at all - they may choose to replace it entirely with the Cloaking Device.

Second of all, we don't know what items can be replaced by the cigarette yet. That's a big factor - if only useful or well-loved items will work, it's not really worth sacrificing them just to give the Smoking taunt a texture and a hitbox.

I think we need to stop pandering to the major mods, and do what we want to do.  That's why I suggested releasing the taunts individually so people can pick and choose.  There's no reason to confine ourselves or not go forward with ideas we like just because we don't think they'll be officially adopted.  That shouldn't be the goal.  The goal is making fun new taunts for Snake.  I play Brawl + exclusively, and I would love to have the cigarette taunt.  However, I'm not a pro.

All that said, there's no reason at all we couldn't have a balanced cigarette taunt.  It should damage Snake if held for too long, that way he can't "plan" for someone to run into him or else he'll end up hurting himself.  And the hitbox itself should be small, like the other sweetspot type moves, incur fire damage and a good amount of vertical knockback, but only do like 12% damage at most.  The best parallel I can think of right now is getting blasted by the spicy curry.

That is balanced out by the fact that Snake becomes visible if he shields or ledgegrabs, which encourages the Snake player to keep his or her defenses open... I'd still say Snake has the upper hand with perfect invisibility, but we can only know how broken or balanced it is for sure by playtesting it against human opponents, which - as far as I know - no one has done yet.

Actually, I've been both an invisible player and fought against an invisible Snake, that's where I was getting my impressions from.

Unfortunately, I believe someone said earlier that only perfect invisibility is possible in Brawl.

I agree, it would have been a cool effect, but it would have knocked the Cloaking Device down from being useful to being a mere novelty.

(actually, there are codes for on-the-fly texture switching now (3P+ matches only) - I wonder if the Cloaking Device taunt could trigger a change to a mostly transparent Snake texture, with some kind of light green or clear distortion effect...)

 I made exactly that a few pages back.  However, it doesn't work in game for some reason, it only shows up in Brawlbox right now, and it's very much visible.

Also... The smoking taunt coulduse some work.  Don't use any actual flame effects...  It looks like Snake is breathing fire, and then it just looks like his face and hand are on fire.  I suppose that's one way to illustrate the danger of cigarettes but it's not really what I had in mind.  The actual animation is terrific but the effects need work.  Just a quick flash implying its being lit and then a dull orange glow for the remainder of the taunt.

I think that's a very good idea. We could even make that translucent layer a cool green for the MGS:TTS Snake.

It's a cool green in every game, except maybe Guns of the Patriots, I haven't played that one.

EternalYoshi, you are a god.  Let's all have a round of internet applause! "claps"  That said, I find the cloaking kind of pointless.  It's really easy to find Snake and punish him, pretty much as easy as if he were visible, although I guess that makes it not broken...?  There are probably only a handful of stages where the player tag doesn't follow you around, and those are so small as to make invisibility pretty worthless since you're just going to be constantly bumping into each other.  Unless you can find a way to temporarily get rid of the player tag, I'd say this one's as good as it's going to get and we should move on to the walking box taunt.

[The Salute]

Several new posts over at the smashboards thread:

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I've been testing your taunt pack for the last few hours, Eternal Yoshi.

Note: Eternal Yoshi, I've highlighted some important bits in green, just so they will stand out from all the rest of the text.

The Salute

The Salute is pretty much perfect now. Snake's legs are still rather bent when he salutes, but that's fine. Excellent work on this one! I had hoped for it to be on down taunt, and the box to be on up taunt... But I'll get used to it.

The Cloaking Device

Wow, that was fun just to play around with. XD I agree with Snake becoming visible when he is hit or grabbed (obviously), but I think it's worth considering letting him stay invisible when he shields or grabs a ledge. I noticed a few things when testing out this taunt:

- Upon using the Cloaking Device taunt, Snake becomes completely invisible. I mean perfect invisibility. If the camera is not close up on Snake, you will see the P1/name tag floating above him, so Snake can not hide in big levels. However, it's going to be hard to predict what Snake's doing when you're fighting him up close, since you can't see him at all... Hopefully this won't be broken, though, since it only takes one successful hit or a grab to reveal Snake, and shielding currently makes him visible too.

- Grenades, the Cypher, the box, the mortar, and land mines are also invisible until Snake loses contact with them. The Nikita is the only exception - it appears to float in midair. o_o

- Unfortunately, no fancy Grenade techniques while you're invisible - if you drop a Grenade by shielding or grabbing, you instantly become visible. I'd love a fix for this if possible, since I love using Grenade techs. I wonder if making it so that shielding doesn't make snake visible would work as a fix?

- Snake will also become visible if you try to roll or spot dodge, and you hold down the L, R, or Z button too long. You'll only stay invisible if you tap a direction and one of those buttons really fast. I'm guessing that this could also be fixed by making it so that shielding does not reveal Snake.

The only other thing I have to say about the Cloaking Device taunt for now is that it might benefit from having the last half of the animation (Snake bowing to the ground) cut, and having the first half (Snake crouching on one knee) lengthened a bit. While it looks cool (Snake seems to fade into the ground), I'm thinking it doesn't make sense for Snake to bow all the way down like that. Besides that, it's a carbon copy of Snake's entrance animation as is.

Oh, and it's kinda annoying how Snake will say "Kept you waiting, huh?" every few times he cloaks. I'd recommend removing that line from the taunt, or perhaps replacing it with "Not even close", one of his victory voice effects (#30 in Sound Test).

This is going to be an awesome taunt. Bionic knew it from the beginning, lol. Too bad it overshadows the Smoking taunt, though... Let's get some feedback and find out which one the majority wants as the new side taunt. I'm guessing the Cloaking Device, as long as it doesn't turn out to be broken (it doesn't feel broken to me, but I've yet to try it against a human opponent).

The Box

I see you've got the box back for down taunt, and isn't that the old up taunt box entry animation? The only odd thing I encountered testing this was this: Whenever you use the down taunt, if you don't input anything else, Snake will loop his box exit animation over and over until you do something.

Eternal Yoshi, you didn't mention a reason for putting the (moving) box on down taunt... I'm just curious about this.

---

Next up, Terminator:

Here's those pics I promised!

And about your MGS tTS Snake texture - Can you fix these few see-through spots? There are two around the straps in front, one on Snake's back near his right arm, and one where his neck meets his collar. Also, could you remove those blue triangles if they're not supposed to be there?

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I fixed the looping.

Same download link as last time, or do you have a new one?

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For those of us who frequent tourneys/play mostly play VBrawl (no gameplay changing hacks, except maybe no tripping if I'm not at a tourney) will it be possible to get the cloaking device taunt, without Snake staying invisible after the taunt? If he stays invisible it compromises having no gameplay changing hacks at tournies.

That's most likely possible, but it defeats the purpose of the Cloaking Device taunt. See my next comment below...

I think it's fine that he does go invisible for a short while during the taunt animation, but I think it would good if there was a version that didn't stay invisible for the vBrawlers. If this isn't possible I could try the possibilty of waiting for the cig taunt and replace the cloaking taunt with that.

Yeah, I'd just wait for the cigarette taunt to be released, and use that instead, if you want to keep Snake as vanilla as possible. While the Cloaking Device is fun, players of vBrawl and even Balanced Brawl might not want to use it for the same reason you gave.

Also, if the cig taunt finally does happen, there should be a vBrawl version of that too. I remember reading the idea of adding a hitbox onto it when he would discard it, that would also compromise the no gamplay changing thing for me.

Speaking of that, I don't think you have to worry about the cigarette having a hitbox like the box does. As it stands, we can't give Snake a visible cigarette without sacrificing one of his other articles (like the box). That means the best we can do is have Snake smoke an invisible cigarette, but still have the orange glow and smoke/dust visual effects show up. As SHeLL said, you wouldn't be able to see the cigarette unless you zoomed in, anyway.

That said, you can't really give an invisible cigarette a hitbox or trajectory. Well, you can, but not being able to see the actual cigarette pretty much ruins that idea IMO. So much for "Cig KOs". :/

The best plan for animating the Smoking taunt that I know of now is simply having Snake pull out the invisible cigarette from an ammo pouch, smoke it for a second (cue orange glow and smoke/dust), and then either make a "putting the cigarette back into the ammo pouch" animation or a "discarding/flicking away" animation. No hitbox or trajectory included.

And I noticed that with these new taunts that some of Snake's weaponry (mortar, cypher, landmine, grenade launcher) were textured, and was wondering how to change them back. I have some experience with BrawlBox.

I noticed that too. I don't know if Eternal Yoshi intended for those to be in there or not, lol.

But yeah, we'll certainly have a taunt pack with none of the specially colored equipment.

I'm sorry if I've sounded picky about these taunts myself, but I think should be vanilla versions so they can be more widely, so people don't have to worry about problems arising at tourney, or for people who just would want to play mostly vanilla brawl. You guys have done some great work in here, keep it up. <3

No problem at all, I appreciate your feedback. You made me realize that there is still going to be demand for the Smoking taunt over the Cloaking Device. Perhaps we can make two versions of the Snake Taunts pack:

Basic Pack (ideal for players of Vanilla Brawl and Balanced Brawl)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Smoking" as side taunt (invisible cigarette, no hitbox or trajectory)
- "Box" as down taunt (not the moving box we hope to make, just the standard one)

Stealth Pack (hopefully adopted by Brawl-, maybe Brawl+ players)
- "Salute" as up taunt
- "Cloaking Device" as side taunt (Snake becomes visible when hit or grabbed, possibly more triggers)
- "Moving Box" as down taunt (Hopefully, Snake will be able to move around in the box and even drop C4 or grenades silently)

Only the Salute and vanilla Box taunts are currently finished.

Any Brawl+ players here tried the Cloaking Device taunt yet? We could use your feedback regarding whether or not you think it's broken, or a good fit for Brawl+. If someone could test it out against human opponents, that would give us an idea how balanced or broken it is.

If you haven't played Brawl +, the differences between it an vBrawl are only the kind that a pro or somebody paying attention would notice.  In other words, balance is just as fragile as it is in BBrawl and vBrawl.  Everybody is just a little bit quicker is the best way I can put it, it feels like Melee with Brawl techniques.  So yes, the cloaking device might be sort of OP.  The one EXTREMELY cheap implementation I thought of , camping and spamming Nikitas, doesn't work because the Nikita is still visible.  All in all I was kind of against this taunt because it's too much of a game changer for me, but it's still very cool, I just doubt any mods will adopt it officially because giving total invisibility to any character is game breaking, no matter how easy it is to make them visible again.  It's not that hard to avoid getting hit as Snake.  Also, I realize this is a little bit more work on our end, but why not just release the individual taunts separately and have the downloader pick and choose?  Or do they all have to be part of one file?

The smoking and moving box taunts are going to be harder. It would be great if you could attempt animating either of those.

Smoking: I have a texture for it, sadly it's not ripped from MGS:TTS, because I couldn't find it in the items section. So, I used a picture of a real Cigaratte. I know I know, I like to make simple textures, but this would save some time for somone working on it.

If we could just port one of the Brawl items (Maybe Cracker laucher) over somthing then vertex it to be really small, vertex alot of stuff off and make it really simple model (A simple tube). If Eternal Yoshi can vertex an arm gun on Gray Fox for his neutral B, it's possible.

This texture here should help if somone is working on the cigs.
http://www.mediafire.com/?7h8zgvy7x02mgcq

I would like somone to use this and become successful. Can't wait!

If we can theoretically get rid of the boxes for indivdual directions of the taunt, do you think maybe we can port over them for individual directions too?  In this case we should replace the box with the cigarette.  And I'm sure there's better geometry to vertex than the cracker launcher, I'll look around the ISO files for something tube like.  Remember we've got hundreds of trophies too. 

Also, if you CAN port over individual directions for the box, then people who want to keep the box could theoretically have three different kinds of boxes.  That would be pretty cool too.

Wario over G&W anyone?  Not to mention the numerous 2D assist trophies.  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX HERE PEOPLE!

1. Meryl (Because Ocelot will be hard)- There's already a really good texture for ZSS in the vault, it's just the vertex is half assed.  She needs to have the god awful 50's housewife hair.  It's what makes her Meryl.

>.> umm...yeah, Sorry about that...
If I vertex the hair it always comes out all messed up

I can give it a try... I'm getting pretty handy at hair vertexing. 

And Terminator, it wasn't that I left Liquid off my character list, it was the fact that I already made him, although he could admittedly be improved still.  And we don't need a Plissken texture, we need a Plissken model, with the headset and the hair and everything.  Authentic Naked Snake should probably come first, and then Plissken can be made from that.  As well as the various grunt models (genome soldier, gurlukovich mercenary, etc.) since they all wear the same kind of jumpsuit.

I just realised there's no 'damaged' textures for Snake, but there are for most other characters...
On topic, what is the forum's opinion on which character from MGS:TTS/MGS2 should be attempted to be recreated in SSBB?

In order:

Twin Snakes:
1. Meryl (Because Ocelot will be hard)- There's already a really good texture for ZSS in the vault, it's just the vertex is half assed.  She needs to have the god awful 50's housewife hair.  It's what makes her Meryl.
2. Revolver Ocelot (Because Ocelot is awesome)- Unfortunately both the trenchcoat and the hair are currently beyond my ability to even think of how to do with Snake.  I've though about turning the Bandana into a trenchcoat, but it's tough.  Possible, but tough.  Then again, nobody says he HAS to be over Snake.
3. Psycho Mantis-Already working on it.  Shiek's vertexed body ported over Mewtwo.  We'll see how this comes together.
4. Genome Soldier-  No excuse for why this hasn't been done already on Snake.
5. The rest of Foxhound A.K.A. Sniper Wolf, Vulcan Raven, and Decoy Octopus.  Wolf would be a medium diffiulty vertex of ZSS or Zelda.  Raven should probably go over Ganondorf, although let's not take DK out of the picture, he is THAT huge.  Decoy Octopus... I mean... we don't NEED him, but he's a part of the team!  He should probably just be a very ugly Snake vertex.
5.Otacon! Though his lab coat presents the same problem as Ocelot's trenchcoat.
6. Roy campbell- Just use mariokart64n's Krauser model, make it fatter, texture it up.

MGS2
1. I mean... Raiden.  He's the guy you play as.
2. Solidus.  I tried conform wrapping Ganondorf’s head to Snake’s like I said I would… It uh… didn’t work.  I don’t believe Solidus’s face looked like a Vagina with a hangnail, but it has been a while since I played MGS2, so maybe it worked after all.  We’d probably have better luck porting snake to Ganondorf, and then doing some vertexing.
3. Vamp. As uncomfortable as he makes me in every possible way, he’d be pretty easy to do and is admittedly kinda cool in an offensive stereotype of a depraved bisexual vampire way.
4. Decent Plissken.  We don’t actually have one right now.
5. Olga Gurlukovich. Lol armpit hair.  A Mr X texture for Gray Fox would also be VERY simple.  Just gray over the eye basically.
6. Fatman.  Dude.  Fatman.  That’d be awesome.  I don’t know who he’d be over, if I did he’d be higher on the list.
7. Fortune.  Probably would be easier to do over Zelda than over ZSS.  Trust me on this.  I’ve worked with ZSS’s hair vertices and they aren’t as simple as they look.
8. Peter F*cking Stillman.  Also, I just realized that if a Raiden moveset were to be made, the coolant spray would have to be a Special move.  That stuff could do everything.
9. Rose would also be fairly easy to do over Zelda.  Plus, I’m sure putting her in a setting where she can be pummeled by a variety of blunt objects will be cathartic for many.
10.  Gurlukovich Mercenaries for the same reasons as Genome soldiers.  Might as well do Arsenal Tengu (Awesome Ninja Guards) over Marth or Gray Fox too.  Hell, do the Marines and the Seal Team 7 guys.  Let's just do everyone who ever wore a Balaclava.

Yea but for that to run well you need a powerful computer.
Also speaking of MGS3 textures, is it possible to vertex a real shirt on snake? Like the ones shown in the game. The neck thing (don't know how to say it) I just think it looks weird having some MGS3 textures on the MGS2 suit. Just doesn't look right.

Yeah...  I'll get around to that eventually.

Y'know... for the MGS3 camo preview square for the original camos (not downloaded), one could screencap the Camo Selection Screen and rip the camo from there.

If I had the means to do such a thing I would be all over it, but unfortunately I don't have a good enough camera and my PS2 is very broken.  That's part of the reason I'm trying to relive the glory through Brawl.

Maybe I could texture the tie to be the same as the bandana. That way, you could use the tie's vertices instead of the head's on the back part.

Thanks for the offer, but that would look really bad, trust me.  The tie just isn't in the right place for that to work.  I tried a few different polygons for the bandana and ultimately just editing the top of the head was best.

Guess what? I fixed the white ammo packs glitch! I tryed out my new PCS file in game and it worked perfecto! I just need to make PAC files for the other Snake textures before I update it! But it worked! White ammo packs are gone!

Great!  Sorry that I didn't get around to sending you the PCS last night.