I Have A Theory. ToS Lovers Look HERE!

[xxmasal22xx]

Hey all, xxmasal22xx here.

well, as you all know, there is much difficulty with getting Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World models to work in brawl.

First, you have to hex it, then you have to fix the bone structure.

Well, i have a WIP theory about why Fortwaffles' Automatic Model Fixing Programs do not fix them.

Keep in mind that this theory is still a work in progress and i am still testing files out.

Here it is:

I conclude that (almost) every TOS2 brres file can be fixed using fortwaffles' automatic model fixing programs. However, it seems that only brres files that contain animations cannot be fixed with them. On the other hand, there are a few, like Verius, for example, that have one animation, yet are still fixed with the programs. Almost every brres (this seems to be from TOS2 only) with animations that i've tried to use on these three model fixers fails to fix the model. However when the TOS2 brres files have no animations, they seem to hex fine, and ARE fixed. MOST of them, at least. I hereby can declare, that the issue has something to do with the CHR0 (animation) files. I have tried removing them, and then saving the brres before running them through the programs, yet they do not save, and instead give an error message.

So, what do you all think? Questions, comments, concerns?
Other findings and/or theories?

Feel free to confirm or decline any of this.

[Psycho Philia]

As I already said to you, the animations are probably not the real problem, the real problem of a lot of Tos2 models, and why their bone tree are completely screwed up, is because of the length of the bones. Some bones have a length that is completely different of Brawl bones, because they have some extra properties. But it seems removing these extra properties by putting all bones to match Brawl length, and also put some filler datas is not enough... And even changing some offset like next offset, previous offset, firstchildoffset by bone mods seems not to be enough... I just hope that these changes I made were well done, because for all the offsets, excepted the mdl0 offset, I have great doubts...

[xxmasal22xx]

As I already said to you, the animations are probably not the real problem, the real problem of a lot of Tos2 models, and why their bone tree are completely screwed up, is because of the length of the bones. Some bones have a length that is completely different of Brawl bones, because they have some extra properties. But it seems removing these extra properties by putting all bones to match Brawl length, and also put some filler datas is not enough... And even changing some offset like next offset, previous offset, firstchildoffset by bone mods seems not to be enough... I just hope that these changes I made were well done, because for all the offsets, excepted the mdl0 offset, I have great doubts...

Yes, however, i wanted a second opinion. Not that i don't value yours, i just want to see what others have to say.

UPDATE:
If the model and textures are moved to another already fixed, no animations, monster's brres (meaning replace the monster's model and textures), it will let you save the changes. HOWEVER, after running fortwaffle's programs on that one, the animations re-appear in the brres.

[Psycho Philia]

Yes, but about the length of the bones, it is one of the most important thing, it has already been proven by RandomTBush himself that this is one of the main reason why the model is screwed up and freezes in game... So you should talk about this too, you can't ignore this aspect.

[xxmasal22xx]

Yes, but about the length of the bones, it is one of the most important thing, it has already been proven by RandomTBush himself that this is one of the main reason why the model is screwed up and freezes in game... So you should talk about this too, you can't ignore this aspect.

When you say "length of bones" you mean that they are longer than the bones brawl uses correct?

So then we just have to fina the ratio between the length of brawl's bones and the length of TOS2's bones, and resize them.

[Psycho Philia]

Take Lloyd mdl0 of Lloyd project in brawlbox 63. And take an other mdl0, Richter's would be fine, with brawlbox 63 too (for Richter make a preview, and then click on the sign +).

Take a look at them carefully in the bone section and look at the window at the right. You should see the words headerlen.

For all Lloyd's bones this value if of 208.

For Richter, it can vary.

The value for all bones to be identical to Brawl, should be of 208.

This value is the length of the bones, that i was talking, some bones have a superior length because they have extra properties, that you're forced to remove. And to do this, you have to erase some parts of the bones, with an hexadecimal editor. But I already did that for Richter, and of course I changed the mdl0 offset (if bones are shorter, mdl0 offset change) but it was not enough. But I'm sure that it is a crucial step.

[xxmasal22xx]

Take Lloyd mdl0 of Lloyd project in brawlbox 63. And take an other mdl0, Richter's would be fine, with brawlbox 63 too (for Richter make a preview, and then click on the sign +).

Take a look at them carefully in the bone section and look at the window at the right. You should see the words headerlen.

For all Lloyd's bones this value if of 208.

For Richter, it can vary.

The value for all bones to be identical to Brawl, should be of 208.

This value is the length of the bones, that i was talking, some bones have a superior length because they have extra properties, that you're forced to remove. And to do this, you have to erase some parts of the bones, with an hexadecimal editor. But I already did that for Richter, and of course I changed the mdl0 offset (if bones are shorter, mdl0 offset change) but it was not enough. But I'm sure that it is a crucial step.

Ah, i see now. So what happens if we change it to say, 416?

[Psycho Philia]

If this value is changed to 416, it means you didn't removed all the extra properties of the bone, so it's bad. Brawl doesn't like to have bones with values other than 208.

[xxmasal22xx]

If this value is changed to 416, it means you didn't removed all the extra properties of the bone, so it's bad. Brawl doesn't like to have bones with values other than 208.

Oh ok. So do you know what else has to be done to the model in order for it to work?

Also, if all the bones have a headerlen value of 208, will at least the bone structure appear in brawl, or does it still crash?

[Psycho Philia]

If all the bones have a value of 208, as I already said, it's not enough to make it playable in brawl, the bone tree is still screwed up even after that...

And for the others things to do to make the model work, I suppose you need to change a lot of offsets, the mdl0 offset because you changed the value of the bones, it is easy, but not enough, the string offset, and here I'm completely lost, and also some offsets like firstchildoffset, next offset, previous offset and parent offset, but for these 4, I don't know if I did it right... The only one who can probably answer us correctly is RandomTBush...

[xxmasal22xx]

If all the bones have a value of 208, as I already said, it's not enough to make it playable in brawl, the bone tree is still screwed up even after that...

And for the others things to do to make the model work, I suppose you need to change a lot of offsets, the mdl0 offset because you changed the value of the bones, it is easy, but not enough, the string offset, and here I'm completely lost, and also some offsets like firstchildoffset, next offset, previous offset and parent offset, but for these 4, I don't know if I did it right... The only one who can probably answer us correctly is RandomTBush...

I think, correct me if i'm mistaken, but i think that with the bone modding program, you can change the firstchildoffset, next offset, previous offset and parent offset. If you try this, just look at richter's bones to see what his arms and legs and whatnot are called, then rig them according to how you want the bone structure. 0 will always be the very first bone's offset...i think.

Im probably wrong, but if this does anything, at least it's SOME information that it will give us.

[Snoopy]

it's as Psycho Phillia said, the lengths of the bones is a main reason why it's really hard to get the ToS models working.  all of Brawls bones are D0 in length (208 in decimal) while some of Richter's are 118 in length (280 in decimal).  you have to remove bone info to make it match the D0 length, but in doing so you will throw off countless pointers, which is most likely your problem, Psycho Phillia.  you have to change every pointer until the last bone you changed, but possibly even more after that.  a while ago i was messing around with adding a bone to a model, and i had to change every pointer up until the bone i changed, but i can't remember if i had to change anything after.  that's why you can't just add stuff in without causing everything to break in the process, because there's so many pointers.

and yes, you'll need the bone tree editing program, or be able to change the parent/child stuff manually, because the bones still need to be restructured.  i was able to see how Richter's bones were set up only once before BrawlBox freaked out at me, and they all have the TopN bone (whatever it's named) as the parent bone, all 168 of them.

[xxmasal22xx]

it's as Psycho Phillia said, the lengths of the bones is a main reason why it's really hard to get the ToS models working.  all of Brawls bones are D0 in length (208 in decimal) while some of Richter's are 118 in length (280 in decimal).  you have to remove bone info to make it match the D0 length, but in doing so you will throw off countless pointers, which is most likely your problem, Psycho Phillia.  you have to change every pointer until the last bone you changed, but possibly even more after that.  a while ago i was messing around with adding a bone to a model, and i had to change every pointer up until the bone i changed, but i can't remember if i had to change anything after.  that's why you can't just add stuff in without causing everything to break in the process, because there's so many pointers.

and yes, you'll need the bone tree editing program, or be able to change the parent/child stuff manually, because the bones still need to be restructured.  i was able to see how Richter's bones were set up only once before BrawlBox freaked out at me, and they all have the TopN bone (whatever it's named) as the parent bone, all 168 of them.

Damn. So no part of my theory was even close. Oh well. So, snoopy, could we follow the structure of Lloyd's fixed bone stucture, or no? I figure if we have somthing to use as a template, we'd be better off.

@Pshyco Philia: are you up to the task of working together on Richter's bones? I think I have a general understanding of how to do this now...

[Psycho Philia]

Absolutely no problem, but my problem now, is that I don't know if I went closer of the fix or if I went in the opposite direction...

As I said you, I managed normally to put all bones to brawl length, and also managed to change the mdl0 offset. But in brawlbox, it doesn't seem to have so much change, worse, I only see at least 13 bones now... And it didn't change after the changes of firstchildoffset etc. I will send you the model that I tried to change by private message. Don't hesitate to send it to Snoopy, you have my autorisation.

[xxmasal22xx]

Absolutely no problem, but my problem now, is that I don't know if I went closer of the fix or if I went in the opposite direction...

As I said you, I managed normally to put all bones to brawl length, and also managed to change the mdl0 offset. But in brawlbox, it doesn't seem to have so much change, worse, I only see at least 13 bones now... And it didn't change after the changes of firstchildoffset etc. I will send you the model that I tried to change by private message. Don't hesitate to send it to Snoopy, you have my autorisation.

OK, not a prob. I will see what i can do, as i cannot access a computer til tomorrow @ 2:35 after school.