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« Reply #3735 on: June 23, 2012, 06:05:03 PM » |
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I disagree, just because it's "out there," that doesn't mean it is right or ethical to use other peoples work as you please. It is just not acceptable in today's society, and should not be acceptable in our community, hence copyright laws and how harshly plagiarism is punished in today's world. It can also be very discouraging to know that once you release your hard work anyone can make the littlest of edits and submit it as his/her own. Specially since most edits do NOT have as much effort put into them as it was to make the base hack. Personal it would discourage me greatly from releasing my work in the vault, specially since my hacks take a considerable amount of time to make. Yes we are editing brawl's files, but with how much brawl hacking has advanced now a days, new hacks barely resemble the base file and we can even create or own. It is just not acceptable,it is unethical, and discouraging. |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 06:33:55 PM by ASF1nk »
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« Reply #3736 on: June 23, 2012, 06:24:11 PM » |
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If i may add my two cents, I believe the plagarism rule should include both exact copies of others hacks, AND ANY edits made to it. Simply put, if users want to make changes to something, they are free to do so, but uploading it, should only be tolerable if they ask the original creator. If the creator says no, then it should be considered plagarism. If the creator doesnt answer, then that should be taken as a "no" as well.
You guys really need to have a set rule, that everybody can agree on. I know its difficult, but it certainly would make your lives here easier.
You guys should also have a strict 3 strike policy, and let all users know that if they violate the rules, their privileges can be taken away for however long the mods see fit/however long the rule states.
This is not regarding packs, i dunno what to say about those, as getting permission for all the stuff you used, cant possibly be easy.
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Thundaga_T2 & AwesomeCasey795 Check out our music request thread here |
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« Reply #3737 on: June 23, 2012, 06:55:58 PM » |
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This kind of stuff has happened since the days before Brawlvault, and the fact of the matter is, there is no way you can stop It. You can put stuff forbidding It in your Brawlvault submission and people can still do It. People can be banned for doing It, and they can still do It. Considering how most of us are using stuff from Nintendo (and now other companies), I'd say that causing a fuss over someone taking something of yours is more than a little hypocritical, and you should be aware of your own behavior before lashing out at others for doing the same. And besides, If someone were to say, take a custom model, give It evil colors and call It the "evil" version of that character, I doubt anyone would be fooled. In addition, no matter what someone else does with your hack, It can't take away from the experience you had making It, and the value of the hack itself.These are just things that can't be avoided. And honestly, I don't think It's worth the time or effort getting upset about It. These things only affect you negatively If you're more concerned with your own ego and pride than you are with having fun hacking Brawl. It's gotten to the point where nobody can edit anything anymore because of all these constant cries of "plagiarism". How is that fun for anyone? People like that are acting like they have copyrights on their hacks. You might as well support SOPA or CISPA or whatever other anti-piracy bills are out there, If you're gonna wanna remove a hack just for a lack of permission. How is It wrong to use other peoples work? As long as proper credit is given, I don't see what the big deal is. Plagiarism is when someone takes credit for someone else's work. If someone is giving credit for an edit, even If they weren't given permission, then they are acknowledging the fact that they didn't do everything themselves, which is the opposite of plagiarism. "Good artists borrow, great artists steal" - Pablo Picasso "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources" - Einstein A great artist can take an idea that was someone else's and evolve it, so that the original idea looks like the cheap copy. A great man isn't someone who has no sources (who derives everything himself). He's one who makes the sources unimportant. Certainly that was true for Einstein's work: he performed no experiments nor invented new kinds of math. But he didn't need to credit those others because he took those existing ideas and used them in a way nobody had before. Pretty much the very definition of creativity. And I have a question for the people who absolutely need their precious permission, what exactly are you missing out on by not getting permission? Because rather or not you give someone permission to edit your work, you're not losing or getting anything from someone editing your hack. So how are you suffering from not getting permission? |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:19:13 PM by PAVGN »
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« Reply #3738 on: June 23, 2012, 07:16:52 PM » |
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I like what you said, PAVGN.
Maybe we should enforce a less tight grip on rules here. We can't stop people posting what they want. And I for one don't want to have to keep track of who makes what. ._.
Here is my view: You make it, you post it, no one else can post that exact work.
If someone takes it, makes a significant change to it. One that is obvious. OBVIOUS. Then it is no longer plagiarizing the other person, and they do not need permission or to give -whatdoyoucallit- rights.
Perhaps, there could be a separate section on the vault meant for packs. People love packs. It makes it convenient.
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« Reply #3739 on: June 23, 2012, 07:32:15 PM » |
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I must agree with PAVGN on this.
I disagree, just because it's "out there," that doesn't mean it is right or ethical to use other peoples work as you please. It is just not acceptable in today's society, and should not be acceptable in our community, hence copyright laws and how harshly plagiarism is punished in today's world. We're hackers, we're no one to claim copyright.
My definition on plagiarism is taking someone elses work and not crediting them for using their work. Wouldn't that work? 
2. No Packs (except if it's all your own work) Why should packs be prohibited?
This is a hacking community, why should we be inspired by copyright stuff in a hacking community? We are supposed to share hacks between us. The Vault was made to share hacks easily, not to make them exclusive.
Normally, Packs tend to have custom made stuff like CSPs/Layout, and even some custom recolors, and I would go as far as to say some would probably make their own edits to PSAs. I don't see why we should care this much for this, they're just hacks. So long as the makers are credited/collabed, it should be fine.
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« Reply #3740 on: June 23, 2012, 07:50:28 PM » |
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Well, as far as this plagiarism thing goes, here's my thoughts; ( Warning: Fortress of Text) We may be using models and whatnot made by the creators of Brawl, but it's not like we can use those for any monetary gain without stirring up legal trouble. Credit is no issue either, as aside from an import, these files come from the people who made this game. It's not like some 14 year old fool can claim that they single handedly created Marth's moveset file, model, animations and whatnot - It's common knowledge that everything about him was created by people whose job it was to do so.
If someone makes a hack, that's all they get out of it - The product they've poured their heart and soul into creating...Possibly some fame amongst the community, but certainly no money or anything like that.
My reason for joining this Brawl modding community was to put back my favourite character from Melee, who I feel was injustly cut. If he was in Brawl normally, I would not've taken up Brawl modding, met anyone from this community, or even found this site. He was what made the series fun for me. As a result, I have been working very hard and squiring myself in the arts of animating, model work and all sorts of things for the sake of putting him back since late February of 2011.
Why would I bring that up? Well, I have had a certain person who has been repeatedly stealing my hard work and trying to pass it off as his own. He even uploaded it to the vault once under one of his alias, "luigiturd". He did literally nothing to change the hack at all, and claimed it was his own work, and even claimed ~I~ was the thief.
I certainly know what it's like to have my hard work stolen, at least three times, by the same guy no less. Is that not plagiarism? All I get out of my dedication to remaking Roy is just that. I'm not being payed to spend all my free time on a computer, struggling with Autodesk for his model, or mindlessly devoting myself to animation after animation after animation. Heck, I could be outside or playing games or doing other things that are less stressful than slaving away on work that will be inevitably robbed.
The idea of someone else being able to make a hack "theirs" by making a mere edit to it feels...Silly. Would that mean one single edit of a keyframe to a random animation in my Roy PSA's Fitmotion file means it's not longer mine? That's ridiculous, by that same logic, if I colour Lucario red, it's my model and not Sora Limited's then? All that does is make me feel discouraged about bothering to continue with my projects...Or at least about releasing them to the public, and I know many others feel the same way for larger works.
The various mods that people make for Brawl, on the one hand, yes, it uses property of its creators, but on the other hand, it draws more people in does it not? If I could not mod Brawl, I would've left that disc on the store shelf to rot. All the fun mods that people make for it and other Wii games attract more attention, and then more people will want to buy the game so they can get in on the fun too. This would mean that the plagiarism of creating Brawlmods brings in more bucks.
I'm all for the idea of sharing models and stuff, but if it comes to something as extensive and time consuming as an animation-heavy moveset, with all the extra goodies like SFX and whatnot included as well, I really feel permission should be applicable here. Heck, I'm alright with people using whatever animations I make, but all I wish is to be recognized and credited for my work.
Would you take someone's mustard and use it without permission, or would you ask first?
...Also, I think these "packs" of things that are just a collection of stuff already on vault need to go.If it's already on the vault, I feel people should just poke around for them. And if they're new, why not just show them the ropes form the get-go? It also feels like these packs are mostly just an attempt to leech off of more well-known people to feed one's download count. .rel ports as well...If the download count was removed, I feel this would be a less frequent occurance.
My only exception the above is if someone has left the community. In this sense it's as if they've "died" and their work is their belongings from that life. |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 07:56:51 PM by Thany »
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« Reply #3741 on: June 23, 2012, 09:43:11 PM » |
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plagiarism:"An act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author." Yes, we cannot stop nor KNOW what other people do in private, that's not the problem. The problem is people making the little edits and because of that, calling it their own and submitting them to the Vault. I just don't see how that's fair to the people that spent their time and effort into making it the best hack possible, just for one person to come in and change 1 frame or 1 pixel and call it their own. " In addition, no matter what someone else does with your hack, It can't take away from the experience you had making It, and the value of the hack itself." That's not true, it is not only about the "experience" it also the time, effort, and how much people like it. That's basically the only thing you get out of it. Now, when people make little edits and pass hacks as their own, other people think that person actually made everything and basically disregard all your effort and involvement with the original hack. Little known fact is, I made the AllisBrawl Trading Cards. Who knows about this? Hardly anyone. Who do they think made them? TheEnigmaLiesBroken. I did the template for the cards which is about 90% of the card. All they do is edit the text in the template I provided them and change the snapshot and call it their own; effortless. It pains me inside to know how little these people do to the cards and call it their own, and even more to know that these people get PAID just to edit my template. Another fact is that Brawl Minus uses many of my hacks, and I got no credit for that. I had to literally fight them for it, and even then I did not get the credit I deserve. An example of this is: http://smashmods.com/forum/page/bmabout.html"Q: Do you guys have a logo or something? A: Yeah, in fact, we do. " B- LogoMine: LogoI know that it is basically the Brawl logo, but the fact is I made it ENTIRELY from scratch. And the sad thing is that their logo edit is a crappy edit of mine, to be honest. " A great artist can take an idea that was someone else's and evolve it, so that the original idea looks like the cheap copy." I agree with you completely, sadly this almost never happens in the community. Most edit to hacks are so simple and crappy, that as a person that takes his time to get every little detail right, I die a little. Ideally if people made their hacks even better than the base hack, hardly anyone would be complaining, but this isn't the case at all. I'm not trying to put these people down but they are a good example. http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=16962http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=12879These edits took merely a few seconds to make. I just don't see the effort on this type of submissions. In the other hand we have stuff like this: http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=26180It makes me very happy to know, that someone took what I made and made it his "own," in a way that you can see the time and effort he put into it as compared to the other edits. It's basically still a somewhat "simple" edit, but it barely resembles to what the base hack was. If you were to poke around the Misc. section of the Vault you would be able to see that I'm not the type of person, that just wants every single of my hacks with simple edits deleted. I am all up for people editing my hacks so long as they spend their time and effort to make it their "own." To me is not the matter of deleting the hacks as plagiarism, but to ENCOURAGE people to actually make an effort to make hacks their "own." I feel most of these simple edits are only convenient for people that are lazy or do not how to make the edits themselves. These people should at least learn how to make these edits themselves, it is not hard at all. "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." And who knows maybe once they learn how to make hacks, they would actually go to become quality hackers. We're hackers, we're no one to claim copyright.
I was in no way implying that we should act as copyright holders. I was merely saying that we as a community should have respect and ethics towards other people's hard work, just how it pretty much is in real life. Well, as far as this plagiarism thing goes, here's my thoughts; ( Warning: Fortress of Text) We may be using models and whatnot made by the creators of Brawl, but it's not like we can use those for any monetary gain without stirring up legal trouble. Credit is no issue either, as aside from an import, these files come from the people who made this game. It's not like some 14 year old fool can claim that they single handedly created Marth's moveset file, model, animations and whatnot - It's common knowledge that everything about him was created by people whose job it was to do so.
If someone makes a hack, that's all they get out of it - The product they've poured their heart and soul into creating...Possibly some fame amongst the community, but certainly no money or anything like that.
My reason for joining this Brawl modding community was to put back my favourite character from Melee, who I feel was injustly cut. If he was in Brawl normally, I would not've taken up Brawl modding, met anyone from this community, or even found this site. He was what made the series fun for me. As a result, I have been working very hard and squiring myself in the arts of animating, model work and all sorts of things for the sake of putting him back since late February of 2011.
Why would I bring that up? Well, I have had a certain person who has been repeatedly stealing my hard work and trying to pass it off as his own. He even uploaded it to the vault once under one of his alias, "luigiturd". He did literally nothing to change the hack at all, and claimed it was his own work, and even claimed ~I~ was the thief.
I certainly know what it's like to have my hard work stolen, at least three times, by the same guy no less. Is that not plagiarism? All I get out of my dedication to remaking Roy is just that. I'm not being payed to spend all my free time on a computer, struggling with Autodesk for his model, or mindlessly devoting myself to animation after animation after animation. Heck, I could be outside or playing games or doing other things that are less stressful than slaving away on work that will be inevitably robbed.
The idea of someone else being able to make a hack "theirs" by making a mere edit to it feels...Silly. Would that mean one single edit of a keyframe to a random animation in my Roy PSA's Fitmotion file means it's not longer mine? That's ridiculous, by that same logic, if I colour Lucario red, it's my model and not Sora Limited's then? All that does is make me feel discouraged about bothering to continue with my projects...Or at least about releasing them to the public, and I know many others feel the same way for larger works.
The various mods that people make for Brawl, on the one hand, yes, it uses property of its creators, but on the other hand, it draws more people in does it not? If I could not mod Brawl, I would've left that disc on the store shelf to rot. All the fun mods that people make for it and other Wii games attract more attention, and then more people will want to buy the game so they can get in on the fun too. This would mean that the plagiarism of creating Brawlmods brings in more bucks.
I'm all for the idea of sharing models and stuff, but if it comes to something as extensive and time consuming as an animation-heavy moveset, with all the extra goodies like SFX and whatnot included as well, I really feel permission should be applicable here. Heck, I'm alright with people using whatever animations I make, but all I wish is to be recognized and credited for my work.
Would you take someone's mustard and use it without permission, or would you ask first?
...Also, I think these "packs" of things that are just a collection of stuff already on vault need to go.If it's already on the vault, I feel people should just poke around for them. And if they're new, why not just show them the ropes form the get-go? It also feels like these packs are mostly just an attempt to leech off of more well-known people to feed one's download count. .rel ports as well...If the download count was removed, I feel this would be a less frequent occurance.
My only exception the above is if someone has left the community. In this sense it's as if they've "died" and their work is their belongings from that life. I feel your pain Thany, sadly it seems not many people here seem to understand us, if you know what I mean. Regarding packs, the Vault is basically a big dynamic "pack." There is just no need for packs, other than pleasing the lazy. By not having packs people can be encouraged to actually poke around the Vault, and who knows they might actually find more stuff they like.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 09:57:18 PM by ASF1nk »
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« Reply #3742 on: June 23, 2012, 09:59:05 PM » |
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Good read there Asf1nk.
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« Reply #3743 on: June 23, 2012, 10:04:12 PM » |
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I agree with most of what you said, ASF1nk.
But what you call a "simple edit" is because you're advaced with most of that.
Take into account the people who JUST began hacking. They know nothing of what their doing, and they have to go and learn gimp or photoshop. They make their first recolor and to them, it took a lot of effort and time because their new to it. They get that confidence and are proud enough of their hard work, they upload it.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:06:47 PM by slayermarth101 »
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« Reply #3744 on: June 23, 2012, 10:17:25 PM » |
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I agree with most of what you said, ASF1nk.
But what you call a "simple edit" is because you're advaced with most of that.
Take into account the people who JUST began hacking. They know nothing of what their doing, and they have to go and learn gimp or photoshop. They make their first recolor and to them, it took a lot of effort and time because their new to it. They get that confidence and are proud enough of their hard work, they upload it.
This is a very good point. The kinds of people making what many consider to be "minor" changes to hacks are really new to this whole scene. To them, those changes aren't minor at all. they took a lot of learning and probably some trial and error. Plus, it probably took them a great deal of courage to actually upload their edit to the Vault. Yeah, some people are probably doing this stuff to up their download count, but I'm willing to bet that not all of them all. |
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« Reply #3745 on: June 23, 2012, 10:36:35 PM » |
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@Thany: Something is someone submitting your hack and saying all of it was made by him/her refusing to say it's yours, and something else is a person making a pack which were really popular and loved back in the day (Silven's, Lord Khanti's, MASTERLINKX's, Elef's, Proteinninja's) and mentioned who made every hack + adding their custom made CSPs and BPs and stuff.
It may be your sweat and time on that hack, but that doesn't means you are the only one going through it. Many others have put as much effort on a single mod/project that you have put on yours.
@ASF1nk: Again, I stand by this:
My definition on plagiarism is taking someone elses work and not crediting them for using their work. Wouldn't that work?
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:38:50 PM by Albafika »
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« Reply #3746 on: June 24, 2012, 12:10:22 AM » |
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I agree with most of what you said, ASF1nk.
But what you call a "simple edit" is because you're advaced with most of that.
Take into account the people who JUST began hacking. They know nothing of what their doing, and they have to go and learn gimp or photoshop. They make their first recolor and to them, it took a lot of effort and time because their new to it. They get that confidence and are proud enough of their hard work, they upload it.
I agree, it might be a big thing for them and I'm more than happy for them, but that still does not mean it is right or fair to submit it when you are basing it off someone else's work. By doing so, they diminish the original creator's hack. Why not edit vanilla files instead? Or ask the original creator if they can submit it? Again this only goes to little edits. @Thany: Something is someone submitting your hack and saying all of it was made by him/her refusing to say it's yours, and something else is a person making a pack which were really popular and loved back in the day (Silven's, Lord Khanti's, MASTERLINKX's, Elef's, Proteinninja's) and mentioned who made every hack + adding their custom made CSPs and BPs and stuff.
It may be your sweat and time on that hack, but that doesn't means you are the only one going through it. Many others have put as much effort on a single mod/project that you have put on yours.
@ASF1nk: Again, I stand by this:
I don't think the definition you looked up would really benefit Brawl Hacking as it's just limiting ideas. Again, the Vault wasn't created to enforce "Copyright" or "Plagiarism Detection", it was made to share hacks for the game.
Again, I stand by this: "I was in no way implying that we should act as copyright holders. I was merely saying that we as a community should have respect and ethics towards other people's hard work, just how it pretty much is in real life." The idea is that people should know this before submitting to the vault, so there is not as much need regulate it. As I recall it, the vault was made to have a place where all the hacks would be in one single space, so they could be easy to find, hence the name "VAULT." And even if it was meant as a sharing tool, having no plagiarism rules would discourage a lot of us hackers from not only submitting, but releasing our hacks; as people can basically just submit them to the vault as their own. People can share just fine without the vault and having no plagiarism rules can hurt the shearing of hacks. |
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 12:17:25 AM by ASF1nk »
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« Reply #3747 on: June 24, 2012, 12:20:48 AM » |
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As I recall it, the vault was made to have a place where all the hacks would be in one single space, so they could be easy to find, hence the name "VAULT." And even if it was meant as a sharing tool, having no plagiarism rules would discourage a lot of us hackers from not only submitting, but releasing our hacks. As people can basically just submit them to the vault as their own.
Obviously, it would be dumb for a hacker to submit their PSA/Model, and then suddenly, a third user submits the exact same thing without anything extra or whatever. It's out of context to even think that would be allowed.
Also, I don't think most hackers ever thought about their hacks being "plagiarized" before or while working on them.
Again, I say, I believe anyone should be free to submit a hack if it contains credit/collab of the original creator(s) and edits/extra stuff. (And maybe have it so the creator of the hack can decide whether everyone must collab him to use his hack for anything or just credit would do) |
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« Reply #3748 on: June 24, 2012, 04:24:22 PM » |
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@Thany What happened to you was actual plagiarism. What I'm talking about is people crying plagiarism because they were not asked permission. Being asked permission, and getting recognized are not the same thing, and have nothing to do with each other. Actually If someone edits your hack, I think It should be taken as a complement, because It means they thought your hack was good enough to be used as a base. Take into account the people who JUST began hacking. They know nothing of what their doing, and they have to go and learn gimp or photoshop. They make their first recolor and to them, it took a lot of effort and time because their new to it. They get that confidence and are proud enough of their hard work, they upload it. This is a good point. I'd like to add that most people who do "small edits" are only doing so because they don't know how to more advanced stuff. Of course there are people out there with malicious intent, but not most people. Most of the time these are just people who discovered Brawl hacking, and thought It would be nice to make It a new hobby for them. They're not these evil little trolls who are plotting away at their computer to steal from hackers, they just want to have fun. To take that away from them just because you weren't asked permission is just selfish and, to me at least, evil. And you're more or less doing to them what you think they did to you. Most people who make edits aren't out to steal anyone's thunder, the thought of plagiarism probably doesn't even cross their mind. They're just thinking, "Oh I'll just use this model to make my fan character" or whatever. Here's another reason why they would edit someone's hack: convenience. If someone wants to make a change or recolor to something not already in Brawl, It's makes little to no sense to do everything from scratch If a model or base made by someone else already exists. All they want to do is make a small change or a recolor or whatever, so why should they be forced to make an entirely new model just for that? I just don't understand why receiving credit, recognition, for your work isn't enough for some people. Why is getting asked permission so important that It's an absolute necessity for certain people? |
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:22:49 PM by PAVGN »
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« Reply #3749 on: June 24, 2012, 05:47:42 PM » |
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What happened to you was actual plagiarism. What I'm talking about is people crying plagiarism because they we not asked permission. Being asked permission, and getting recognized are not the same thing, and have nothing to do with each other. Actually If someone edits your hack, I think It should be taken as a complement, because It means they thought your hack was good enough to be used as a base. Heh...I feel a lot better after reading that now. Thanks. I guess my biggest issue is wanting to be recognized for my efforts, but I'm still not a very well-known Brawl modder, and my greatest work is of a character who's not really that popular, either. With credit being practically the only tie to my efforts, it feels like I don't have a lot of solid proof when I say that something that I've made is mine, but then again, my personal thief's antics have made me paranoid... I'm still not fond of .rel ports, though, but this is why I have patched all but 5 .rels in my download to sate the desires of having a Marth-PSA of any kind over whomever, though. But, all that aside, I do like letting people use my animations for their own projects. I've just...Never really seen it from the perspective of people liking my work so much that they want to base something off of it...Heh heh. I suppose we'd all be better off with keeping that thought in our hearts :3 |
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