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Author Topic: BrawlVault: Feedback and Updates  (Read 544326 times)
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Ricky (Br3)
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    « Reply #705 on: February 03, 2016, 01:44:29 PM »


    This is hilarious.

    I believed some people from as old as 2010 would come to have already understood the Vault's policy on uploaded hacks by now.

    The KC-MM staff's decisions always value what is best for the whole mass of players who use the Vault hacks on their hacked Brawl. Just think about it just a little - and without your own interest in sight - and you'll see.



    Understand.

    The hacks you made, when in private and for your own use, and never released, are technically yours. Even though they pretty much aren't because of the resources used. Anyways, no biggie here. Moving on.

    The hacks you made and didn't public release, but were released by someone else, are meant to stay out because they leaked. Imagine that a certain hack was made and was only up for one day. For the sake of the community, that hack should remain avaliable forever, for anyone who might want it, and any time they want it. So, person Y simply reuploads it and says "The creator of this isn't me, but actually X". Person Y doesn't gain anything from that, after all, we don't allow people to profit from Vault submissions. Instead, the community gains with it, because a hack that would have been avaliable for a short period and mostly unavaliable becomes a permanent hack avaliable for whoever wants it.

    The hacks you made and publically released are public. No biggie here either.



    So I don't see what the problem is.



    However, when reading all this stuff, the worst thing is the double standard on what is theft and what isn't.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 02:05:05 PM by 白三 » Logged

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    « Reply #706 on: February 03, 2016, 01:58:42 PM »


    I've been watching this entire thread since the announcement but I try not to involve myself in drama when possible, but since I'm active on here and also a moderator who's job it is to judge content for approval or deletion I'd like to give my opinion on the matter too, no matter how unfavorable it may be.

    First, I just want to say that this entire thing is a huge minefield for both me and KJP, since we're members of both the KCMM staff and Ex-PMDT, so it's a difficult thing to get out what's on our minds without setting off either side. With that in mind, there's several things that go with my beliefs or against them no matter what the topic or context is.

    I'm against theft, obviously, but in regards to the content that's publicly available now, that problem can't really be helped because I don't believe that the people who now have access to the files are the thieves, that role belongs to the ones who leaked the stuff in the first place. Whenever there's a leak for a game the entire scenario turns into a forbidden fruit, there's literally never been a game that had a leaked release and didn't get pirated or put up on a torrenting site, not once.

    I'm also against suppressing user content in the same way that I'm about free speech and press. It's just morally wrong to keep someone from expressing themselves, no matter what.

    Getting into legal trouble is also pretty big, so as far as the content relating to leaked files goes, I personally believe that anything which 1, doesn't put the original creators and by extension the former PMDT in a questionable or dangerous situation and 2, would have been released to the vault in a standalone fashion, specifically anything that works independently of engine changes and would be compatible with vanilla brawl, should be fair game to be uploaded. However, in order to prevent any further drama or controversy I  it'd probably be best to ask the creators of the permission to do so on a site-wide scale or have them upload the files themselves.
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    « Reply #707 on: February 03, 2016, 02:03:42 PM »


    This is hilarious.

    I believed some people from as old as 2010 would come to have already understood the Vault's policy on uploaded hacks by now.

    The KC-MM staff's decisions always value what is best for the whole mass of players who use the Vault hacks on their hacked Brawl. Just think about it just a little - and without your own interest in sight - and you'll see.



    Understand.

    The hacks you made, when in private and for your own use, and never released, are technically yours. Even though they pretty much aren't because of the resources used. Anyways, no biggie here. Moving on.

    The hacks you made and didn't public release, but were released by someone else, are meant to stay out because they leaked. Imagine that a certain hack was made and was only up for one day. For the sake of the community, that hack should remain avaliable forever, for anyone who might want it, and any time the want it. So, person Y simply reuploads it and says "The creator of this isn't me, but actually X". Person Y doesn't gain anything from that, after all, we don't allow people to profit from Vauly submissions. Instead, the community gains with it, because a hack that would have been avaliable for a short period and mostly unavaliable becomes a permanent hack avaliable for whoever wants it.

    The hacks you made and publically released are public. No biggie here either.



    So I don't see what the problem is.



    However, when reading all this stuff, the worst thing is the double standard on what is theft and what isn't.

    Forgive me if I am wrong in understanding you but you seem to be arguing that leaking is okay ('leaks are meant to stay out' which I take you to mean 'remain on the  site') regardless of the circumstances.

    If that is your point, I have to say that while it is true that, at least in short term, the community at large will benefit from the leak, in long term one can only venture how many will actually bother to create or publish anything. You could say that creators will have no problem with this but I imagine many of them will disagree.

    Surely I misunderstood you because breeding insecurity and fear of theft (for a lack of a better word) cannot be the guiding principles of your rules, can they?
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 02:05:52 PM by Sofron » Logged

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    « Reply #708 on: February 03, 2016, 02:07:49 PM »


    Thanks for your constructive criticism. Definitely the correct way to contribute to the discussion at hand.
    Everything has been said already. Might as well add some more condescension, right? It's what you guys usually spew whenever something related to PM is brought up.

    Lets be real, the only reason this is even being debated right now is because we're talking about PM. Had it been an individual user's work getting leaked without their consent, I'm 100% certain you lot wouldn't hesitate to prevent the leaks from being hosted on here. Deny it all you want, but I've lurked this site for quite a while, and that the trend I've always seen.
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    « Reply #709 on: February 03, 2016, 02:19:50 PM »


    Here is how I see the argument for the leaked stuff being posted in accordance with it being a supposed community benefit. I see it as a rather short sighted approach.

    Even if you view the matter objectively and not as a PM issue you have the fact that their is really two groups this site serves. The artists and the consumers. If you do put the content up it is true consumers will have new content easily accessible but consider the future repercussions. By valuing the consumer over the artist you are not really supporting the artists who contribute to the site. If artists are not supported why should they feel compelled to produce more content for the public, it is not like they have to release their work in the first place. In short by putting the consumer ahead in the exact instant of such scenarios you actually hurt future consumers by burning the content producers who very well might not produce in the future. Brawl Vault is no different than any other business model, you have to keep your producers happy otherwise you end up with no product to distribute.
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    Ricky (Br3)
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    « Reply #710 on: February 03, 2016, 02:28:04 PM »


    Forgive me if I am wrong in understanding you but you seem to be arguing that leaking is okay ('leaks are meant to stay out' which I take you to mean 'remain on the  site') regardless of the circumstances.

    If that is your point, I have to say that while it is true that, at least in short term, the community at large will benefit from the leak, in long term one can only venture how many will actually bother to create or publish anything. You could say that creators will have no problem with this but I imagine many of them will disagree.

    Surely I misunderstood you because breeding insecurity and fear of theft (for a lack of a better word) cannot be the guiding principles of your rules, can they?

    Keep in mind that hacks leaking is actually a really rare circunstance. And usually, they don't happen without trust consequences between the leaker and the developer, and usually a significant change in the share policies of the developer.

    A lot of people here do make their own stuff, and many others use their works as a starting point (most often recolors) because they don't yet have the skills for big things. But I can assure you all of the good hackers have started doing so, regardless of how good they are now. Again, that is a thing from very, very early in the history of Brawl hacking... it has never changed and very likely never will.

    What I'm really getting at is that people do continue making their own stuff. Of course, not as much as in the times of old, before the interest for Brawl started to decline. But I can assure you new stuff is still being made, and derivative work is still being made, and Brawl hacking is extremely likely to continue like this until Smash hacking becomes common, and possibly even past that... and leaks don't really contribute to putting a halt to it. Specially because we ourselves do not leak anything - we only offer a possibility of keeping leaks avaliable, because it would be a shame to make unavaliable a hack that is good.

    Everything has been said already. Might as well add some more condescension, right? It's what you guys usually spew whenever something related to PM is brought up.

    Lets be real, the only reason this is even being debated right now is because we're talking about PM. Had it been an individual user's work getting leaked without their consent, I'm 100% certain you lot wouldn't hesitate to prevent the leaks from being hosted on here. Deny it all you want, but I've lurked this site for quite a while, and that the trend I've always seen.

    Well, then take my word for the fact that if you really believe what you said is true, you clearly have not been here nearly enough.

    Here is how I see the argument for the leaked stuff being posted in accordance with it being a supposed community benefit. I see it as a rather short sighted approach.

    Even if you view the matter objectively and not as a PM issue you have the fact that their is really two groups this site serves. The artists and the consumers. If you do put the content up it is true consumers will have new content easily accessible but consider the future repercussions. By valuing the consumer over the artist you are not really supporting the artists who contribute to the site. If artists are not supported why should they feel compelled to produce more content for the public, it is not like they have to release their work in the first place. In short by putting the consumer ahead in the exact instant of such scenarios you actually hurt future consumers by burning the content producers who very well might not produce in the future. Brawl Vault is no different than any other business model, you have to keep your producers happy otherwise you end up with no product to distribute.

    This is an interesting point of view. However, as I answered above, at least from what I've seen (and I've been here for a long while), leaks are actually an extremely rare situation. Most developers don't share their stuff until they're finished, or if they do, they only share it with one person that can help them and that they really trust. The effect of leaks are hardly as harmful to the developers side as you put it, or even to the community as a whole.

    Feel free to disagree, but I believe anyone who has watched this forums for as long as I've been will agree with me.
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    « Reply #711 on: February 03, 2016, 02:29:59 PM »


    Everything has been said already. Might as well add some more condescension, right? It's what you guys usually spew whenever something related to PM is brought up.

    Lets be real, the only reason this is even being debated right now is because we're talking about PM. Had it been an individual user's work getting leaked without their consent, I'm 100% certain you lot wouldn't hesitate to prevent the leaks from being hosted on here. Deny it all you want, but I've lurked this site for quite a while, and that the trend I've always seen.
    I don't have to deny anything. I'll just quote myself:
    To avoid this, Miacis already stated Large Leader suggested contacting fellow PMDT Team interested in releasing their work in the future and to contact us and we'd extend his deadline to an agreeable lapse of time (Which could be months, so long as it does gets released).

    Difference being that this has happened before, and we've removed such WIPs, because you do plan to eventually release your mod (In contrast, we're not sure of who plans on releasing their models on the PMDT).
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 02:32:03 PM by Wolfric » Logged


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    « Reply #712 on: February 03, 2016, 02:51:25 PM »


    *Sigh*

    As a BV staff it would be very irresponsible of me to keep quiet and let everyone sort this out.

    Keep in mind that once the change is online, we (the ones who moderate your mods entries) are the one that will have to carry out the rules, not the red stars or green stars, or silver stars... all equally and fairly, and as much as I hate to do it. And I know both Theytah and KJP will hate to do it.

    So, let me say the following. If you see a person uploading something leaked that belongs to you... talk to him.

    Humans are social beings, and believe it or not, I meet with some dudes who's packs I've deleted from the vault and they understood and even fixed the situations.

    What is leaked is leaked, and if it doesn't get hosted here, it will get hosted on thumblr or reddit like the said packs I've deleted. So banning them fixes nothing, and Im sorry to say it... you can stop one website, or two counting smashboards, but you cannot stop the internet.

    I've been thinking for hours, even cutting class, about what side I should choose. I respect artwork, and I respect having the options of having control of what you created (not owned), but I also respect people being able to upload stuff they see fit when the rules are in check.

    So I choose to wait more, to give time. But look at what "giving" time has come to? This. Frustration, anger, and eternal hatred growing ever so stronger as a reminder that a chance of an agreement is downright impossible. The radiation emitted from this thread is cancerous.

    So what now? I made the mistake of looking for a way to end this peacefully, there is just no positive way to solve this. A side will suffer penalties regardless of choice, while the other rejoice. At Least I will not regret  to say my opinion on the matter... here, and the staff chat.

    So my choice? Remain neutral. There is nothing I can say or act that will change everything, this has gotten too far deep for any positive outlook.

    Lets be real, the only reason this is even being debated right now is because we're talking about PM. Had it been an individual user's work getting leaked without their consent, I'm 100% certain you lot wouldn't hesitate to prevent the leaks from being hosted on here. Deny it all you want, but I've lurked this site for quite a while, and that the trend I've always seen.

    This is quite offensive to us, mostly me and the rest of the cyan stars. Since I sweep the Vaults every 2 days, and it was always my goal to be fair and equal to all, no exceptions of experience or label. If the smash 3 stuff gets leaked and hosted here, I cannot do anything about it. And Smash 3 is my PMBR if you dig.

    So please don't make us cyans look like an [censored]s will ya? We are not to blame to what the red and purple stars decide. We handle the vault, and not the forums.

    You as a lurker don't see this, because I work in silence, most of us do. And I think some people can back me up on this, that I've never bended the rules sorely because it's for a personal grudge. I've deleted my own brother's packs for being plagiarised, thats how determined I am to prove that all users are to be treated the same.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:02:33 PM by Scout » Logged


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    « Reply #713 on: February 03, 2016, 02:53:14 PM »


    I know you said you didn't want me to post here Mia, but to be honest, even after reading a lot of this [censored] storm... I can't even find it within myself to get mad over this. At all. *Sigh.*

    I'm going to be blunt with everyone here: [censored]ty things have happened between the KC:MM staff and the former PMDT Devs in the past. Certain kinds of perceptions by people on both sides doesn't really help with trying to have a civil discussion either. Like finding out that someone you respected saying nasty stuff about you behind your back and not even having the courage to face you when called out. You know who you are, and I'm not taking that thread any further here.

    The fact remains, and the biggest source of conflict for the longest time between KC:MM staff and the P:M Devs, was the idea of publicly releasing the resources of builds of P:M before development was ceased. The idea behind this was that publicly releasing these resources would benefit the community by allowing things to be done that weren't possible with what the community had at the time.

    It's never been a matter of feeling entitled to those resources, that's pure nonsense.

    It's always been about that a lot of people here on KC:MM wanted those resources to further modding to new heights, like with what happened with vertexing, and then PSA, and followed thereafter by model importing, thanks to BlackJax.

    We're not entitled to them and never have been, but the refusal on part of the devs (usually with saying they wouldn't release those resources probably until P:M hit Gold if I remember correctly) from the very beginning made some of us feel like the PMDT and it's dev team were purposefully leaving us in the dust to rot, for no apparent reason that we could find.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 02:58:11 PM by Velen » Logged


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    « Reply #714 on: February 03, 2016, 03:12:26 PM »


    Personal grudges are absolutely dismissible in the current situation and it's just annoying to bring those up.

    Sorry Vel, but you did not contribute a whole lot to the discussion with the way you've put things.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:15:05 PM by 白三 » Logged

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    « Reply #715 on: February 03, 2016, 03:36:59 PM »


    Personal grudges are absolutely dismissible in the current situation and it's just annoying to bring those up.

    Sorry Vel, but you did not contribute a whole lot to the discussion with the way you've put things.

    You mean putting it in a way that isn't being forthwith about how it is / was? At least as I saw it from my point of view?

    I've long since gotten over my grudge for the PMDT in general, Ricky. I was just citing a certain example personally experienced by me in the past, and I'm past that too.

    -and to be honest, I don't feel like there is much more that I can add that hasn't already been said: Nanobuds & co. believe their wishes should be respected by not having the P:M resources and files made by team members posted on the Vault. KC:MM staff believe they should be released and have been trying to extend (to an extent) an olive branch (from my understanding) to facilitate that happening. Besides, if it wasn't clear from earlier, that "discussion" was mainly going in circles, in no small part because the other people popping up to join in were literally echoing each other throughout.

    Besides, understanding how we got here to begin with is important.

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    « Reply #716 on: February 03, 2016, 03:48:14 PM »


    I can say that everyone in the staff position is inclined to a decision that benefits the community the most. Yes, even Miacis, despite whatever may seem. Miacis is probably the most community-driven member of the staff.

    Regardless of possibly existing grudges, as they are absolutely dismissable. It's our professional duty as staff members, and it is quite insulting that anyone suggests otherwise.
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    « Reply #717 on: February 03, 2016, 05:43:12 PM »


    As a matter of fact, we advise... nay, we encourage hackers to beat up their local PMDT friends for their WIP stages and then upload it all on BrawlVault. Our community will then drink the tears and laugh at the awful misfortune of these most respectful hackers taking punches like nerds.
    Why on earth would you do that? What logical reason would cause you to draw that conclusion? It's the content of individual modders. If they don't feel safe uploading their content, then they have the right not to do that. For instance, a few PMDT workers teased content that didn't make it into Project M, but are currently uploaded on the Vault, for instance, Theytah's yarn Kirby. Regardless of whether it was PMDT content or not - nobody should ever upload someone else's work.
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    « Reply #718 on: February 03, 2016, 06:38:28 PM »


    words
    Fair enough, but to be clear, I was not referring to the whole staff. Sorry if it came off that way.
    Velen put it a lot better.
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    « Reply #719 on: February 03, 2016, 07:54:36 PM »


    You guys seriously disappointed me.

    Hey, don't drag the community into this. It's the leadership that's the problem here.
    I highly respect you as a Modder, Haloed, and so do I respect Spex130, Nanobuds, KJP, Theytah, and other names from the ex-PMDT that don't come to mind in this situation. You have to understand the decision we reached didn't come from Miacis. We had a thorough discussion (And still are having it), but the way both Miacis and the ex-PMDT (+ Nanobuds' helpful minions) have "debated" the situation has gone horribly.

    I can say that everyone in the staff position is inclined to a decision that benefits the community the most. Yes, even Miacis, despite whatever may seem. Miacis is probably the most community-driven member of the staff.
    This is a fact. Miacis and the PMDT have had their past, but that was in the past. This decision was reached by all the Brawl Vault Staff, not Miacis alone. And Miacis didn't make it public until we made sure we were all on the same page. Miacis and myself were just 2 more votes added to those of the Vault Staff. Now, you know who are some of the Vault Staff members? People like KingJigglyPuff (ex-PMDT), Theytah (ex-PMDT), Scout (A common browser of SmashBoards), ASF1nk (Known CSS Modder), and Legacy Wolf (Pretty known for his Stages).

    Here you are throwing us under the dirt for having a different opinion and brigading us, when we haven't even reached a final decision.

    Rather than having this discussion in a public forum, is there any way we can have a private discussion between the BV staff and former-PMDT members?

    That way, we can have a reasonable discussion to clear up any misunderstandings without the peanut gallery chiming in.

    I feel like that would be the best way to get this sorted out in a civil manner and reach a compromise where both parties are happy.
    I'm open to the idea, so long as we're civil about it.
    « Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 07:55:44 PM by Wolfric » Logged


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