Home Gallery Resources The Team Rules chat Login Register
Pages:  1 ... 7 8 9 [10] 11 12
Author Topic: The Real Reason the Community is Dying.  (Read 59748 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Carnage
God Kitten
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 7551


(retired)

  • Awards Constructive Super Saiyan Topic Heart Container Starstormer

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #135 on: March 24, 2015, 01:49:31 PM »


    Parts of that are proper criticism, where you actually explain the problems(For example, "obvious user of Marth's animations" or "Random enlargement"), but there are also parts that just cause feuding between the criticizer and criticizee(i.e. "poor recolor work", "poor PSA coding", etc., where it doesn't say what the problem is)

    Remember, we can always get better at analyzing problems, maybe even offering fixes, or even implied fixes, which helps the community feel like the criticism actually helps. I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone else at critiquing; we ALL need to get better at being more analytical and fixing problems, as opposed to just saying "they're bad".(As analyzing the problems helps the user to understand how to fix the problem)

    Just like the joke "You look like heck!" "You should see the other guy", but that doesn't change that the person still looks like crap. It just means that the other guy looks worse, but it doesn't change that you still look aweful; likewise, saying "That was mean!" and "You should see the other guy's meanness", that's the exact same type of dialog, just worded slightly differently.

    And sometimes, it's good to be sensitive; if you're sensitive, then you'll know how to treat people more like people and less like someone to just argue against.

    Exactly his point. The fact that he knows what proper critiquing is, that it's about documenting what the problem is, so that the problems can actually get fixed, and to encourage people that just because they're first model or anything like that may not be good, it doesn't mean that they can't get better at it, maybe even mastering it. For example, I originally used the paint bucket tool to recolor snapshots I took from Freddi Fish, and I even painted the same color on the shadows, making the characters not have shadows! Everyone starts as a noob at everything, even the masters. Even famous inventors, like Alexander Graham Bell, screwed up many times before being successfull finally. I think what Carnage is getting at is that the true definition of critiquing is not to mention something as poor work, but to mention the flaws, fixes to the flaws, and how to improve and practice. That's what it truly means to critique something.
    You explained what i wanted to say better than i could, this is what i meant,  i wont go to a kids first work and say its poor work, it just desmotivates him to even do any more since he took a real harsh critique on his first attemp, what i meant is tone down the bar abit, you cant critique a noob the same way you critique a known hacker work, becuase you know he can do better and the noob is still on the ropes you can say what you would change and fix, but not to bring him down on his first attemp and alot of people do this on the community, specialy to the noobs that came with the ssb4 wagon.
    Logged


    LC-DDM
    Not your average sprite!
    Special Access
    *****
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 4075


    Voted "Best Guest for Campfires".

  • Awards Heart Container Good Citizen KCMM Veteran 128-bit Pro Gamer

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #136 on: March 24, 2015, 01:54:50 PM »


    I used to only made background swaps (some of the lesser skill required stage making), but then LC said something about "All being the same stage with the same colors" or something like that, I was pissed and I wanted to prove him wrong. So I started making custom stages just to prove a point that I could do something else with these PM stages. And because of that, I'm actually learning to use 3DS max which is something I never seen myself doing. And in the end leaving my comfort zone to do other better things.

    And from simple stuff like these:
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=33672
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=34013

    To these:
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207550
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207173

    Unlike how I used to be, I wanna be criticized in order to just make something good (or bad) better!

    Of course, in the end is your choice whenever you take criticism or not, but be certain that you are ignoring an advantage.

    I used to be like you, not accepting things and only wanting to do the things each of you are comfortable in, but frankly...accepting criticism may prove that you indeed care of what you do. And who knows? Maybe the one criticizing may help you hands on.


    This [censored] right here? This is what there needs to be more of.

    THIS is how you bring health back to the community - you essentially nut up and work hard to get better. There's always going to be [censored] in the first releases, but it's up to the person to take a step forward and improve upon their knowledge rather than throw a [censored]fit whenever they're not given five-star appraisals from people with just as much 'knowledge' as the user - sometimes even less so.

    Sometimes tough love is all you need.
    Logged




    Grammar is necessary. Butchering your language isn't. If you don't have time to correct yourself, I don't have time to read your post.
    Your compilation pack is as useless as your quest for approval, and I pity both.

    Climaxing to a jump scare would be pretty great.

    Large Leader
    Brotherrrrrrrr
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3036


    Metal Gear

  • Awards Diamond in the Rough Active Contributor Renowned Hacker Super Saiyan Topic

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #137 on: March 24, 2015, 03:01:26 PM »


    About that whole Little Mac PSA debacle and anything else when the user aims high. Really high. I mean like, high as the [censored]ing twin towers and higher than that [censored].

    When most users start out (that aren't Prodigies), they'll make small edits to a base PSA, maybe edit a PSA that they like. But nothing like that Little Mac PSA. Making a whole PSA having NO experience with animating or coding in ANY form is a bad idea. Yes, you'll get someone like SDoom that just KNOWS this stuff and it's natural for him. And that's completely fine. But that's him, and not 90% of the hacking population.

    Telling someone "Oh, this is great but it needs X, Y, Z" is DEFINITELY the right way to do it if they're starting small. But if you're starting big and you want to make something of that caliber, you better be damn sure you're gonna get criticism and a hell of a lot of it.

    "But they were trying!"

    No, they weren't. If they were, the A/A Topic would be LITTERED with topics and posts with them asking questions with how something works and a question that isn't asked enough: WHY it works.

    They only asked for "help" in their own thread. Hell, they even ended up stealing animations from JRush/ThriceWise's Little Mac PSA. The leader of the "project" said that he was going to "Make the best Little Mac PSA". To be frank, he sure as hell didn't show it.

    [censored], no matter how much polish is on it, is still [censored].
    Logged



    Quote from: Miacis
    In other words, LURK MORE.
    Quote from: LC-DDM
    In other news, birds fly, sun shines, fishes swim, and the sky is [censored]ing BLUE.
    Quote from: Miacis
    3. ... You seriously don't know who Clinton is?
    Quote from: Haseyo
    If only hacking Brawl paid bills.
    Quote from: Nanobuds
    O snap
    Quote from: DrPanda
    But you are in a Smash Bros. thread.
    You can't have an opinion here.

    nanobuds
    Overlord Kitten
    ******
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 6754


  • Awards Former PMDT Sniper Diamond in the Rough >9000

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #138 on: March 24, 2015, 05:43:20 PM »


    Well i can show you but i hope i wont get in trouble for this...
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=46179.msg1300122#msg1300122No offense to kjp but the entire post is just to kill the newbie psa, he had just joined and was using modified animations like we all did on the start, but he got a very harsh critique, basicaly saying everything is wrong, this isnt the right way to encourage a newbie in to the community, it was his first work he was probably still exploring psa and brawlbox, heck his first psa was better than my first psa by far and if i had that criticism when i was starting i would have probably had gave up everything altogether.


    This isn't bad. AT ALL. What KJP did is PERFECT. He didn't [censored] post the dude. He told him what was wrong with his PSA... which happened to be everything.

    But Carnage. You have the constructive criticism badge. SURELY you must know what proper critiquing is.

    It should be the Kiss Ass badge... thats all you really need to do here to get it around here, since real critics are mean bullies.

    Parts of that are proper criticism, where you actually explain the problems(For example, "obvious user of Marth's animations" or "Random enlargement"), but there are also parts that just cause feuding between the criticizer and criticizee(i.e. "poor recolor work", "poor PSA coding", etc., where it doesn't say what the problem is)


    This is when its important to grow thick skin. Critics aren't here to baby you and make you feel good. If your stuff is bad, then they will let you know its bad. No need for the bull[censored] to make the creator feel all happy and good. It gives them a false sense of accomplishment.
    « Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 05:45:02 PM by Nαnobuds » Logged

    windhunter7
    BrawlVault Gatekeeper
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3432

    Check out my website for tutorials and more! :)

  • Awards Famous Hacker Featured RAGE!! Fiery Topic

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #139 on: March 24, 2015, 06:12:24 PM »


    I never said anything about that critics should be babyish and go "it's ok" to everyone. I said that critics should state what the problems are, so that the person who is being criticized has some knowledge to lean on for how to better it.

    Honestly, though, I would think that an experienced hacker like yourself would know the proper definition of what proper criticism is. It's not being mean. It's not being so Kindergarten-teacher-ish that you go "It's ok; he tried." It's none of that. It's defining the bad qualities, and offering advice on how to improve upon them. (I have like half of your hacks in my custom build, and when you act like this, I wonder how your mods are so cool and everything; unless, of course, someone properly criticized your mods when you were starting out)
    Logged


    nanobuds
    Overlord Kitten
    ******
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 6754


  • Awards Former PMDT Sniper Diamond in the Rough >9000

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #140 on: March 24, 2015, 06:40:56 PM »


    I never said anything about that critics should be babyish and go "it's ok" to everyone. I said that critics should state what the problems are, so that the person who is being criticized has some knowledge to lean on for how to better it.
    crit·i·cism:
    1. the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.
    2. the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.

    crit·i·cize
    1. indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.
    2. form and express a sophisticated judgment of (a literary or artistic work).

    ... Are you sure its me who doesn't know what criticism is?

    This is EXACTLY what KJP did. He said what was wrong with the PSA, which was basically everything. He was being blunt and honest, not mean. Whats the problem? The poor animations. That tells the guy that his animations need work. The truth hurts sometimes. Its a part of life. But its also a part of maturing and growing up. Not everyone will be nice in their critiques, but if these people really have what it takes to be good in what they want to do, then they will take it all in and improve. If they quit, then this obviously isn't the field for them.

    (I have like half of your hacks in my custom build, and when you act like this, I wonder how your mods are so cool and everything; unless, of course, someone properly criticized your mods when you were starting out)
    I did have people just like KJP critique my stuff. From ItalianStallion, Velen, Beyond, Pik, and others, I learned how to improve my work. Yeah, I would have the ass-kissers and say everything I made was good and perfect, but I know its not true. I would ask around for help to improve, instead of getting offended from harsh, but true, critiques. There were times when I wanted to give up a project because people didn't like how it was looking. You know those ZSS alts in PM 3.5? The ones that everyone thinks looks bad? I made those. So guess what? Through harsh 4chan and reddit comments, I learned what I did wrong, and they look much better now. Like Scout, I grew thick skin, sucked it up, and took in all the critiques from people. Look where I am now. One of the most successful people here on the Vault. I'm not even an artist; I study Sports Medicine. However, from years of practice, I was able to get this good at this small hobby.
    « Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 07:57:13 PM by Nαnobuds » Logged

    Taiko
    Extreme Kitten
    *******
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 384


    Taco++

  • Awards Star Hacker >9000 Active Contributor Super Saiyan Topic

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #141 on: March 24, 2015, 06:44:05 PM »


    I never said anything about that critics should be babyish and go "it's ok" to everyone. I said that critics should state what the problems are, so that the person who is being criticized has some knowledge to lean on for how to better it.

    Honestly, though, I would think that an experienced hacker like yourself would know the proper definition of what proper criticism is. It's not being mean. It's not being so Kindergarten-teacher-ish that you go "It's ok; he tried." It's none of that. It's defining the bad qualities, and offering advice on how to improve upon them. (I have like half of your hacks in my custom build, and when you act like this, I wonder how your mods are so cool and everything; unless, of course, someone properly criticized your mods when you were starting out)
    The critiques I've seen do exactly that. It's really difficult to not make a critique sound negative, especially if there's a lot to fix.

    As people have been saying, thick skin is essential if you want to get better, otherwise you'll just stay at the same level. I'm pretty sure most (if not all) the "pros" around here have received critique at some point when they were starting, and look where they are now. If they just took it seriously and went "aww these people are mean they didn't like what I did" they wouldn't even be here.

    EDIT: And Nano's post.
    Logged


    Turb0k
    Supreme Kitten
    ********
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 582

    Something Stupid

  • Awards Featured Hot Topic Dedicated Hacker Heart Container

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #142 on: March 24, 2015, 07:35:23 PM »


    Well time for me to add my two cents.

    Like Scout, we didn't all start as good as we are now. Most of us had critics to tell us what we were doing wrong and how to improve upon them. (Most of them not so pretty) But it was accepting that our mods weren't perfect that helped us to improve, and become great (or in my case descent) Brawl hackers.
    Logged


    windhunter7
    BrawlVault Gatekeeper
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3432

    Check out my website for tutorials and more! :)

  • Awards Famous Hacker Featured RAGE!! Fiery Topic

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #143 on: March 24, 2015, 08:23:19 PM »


    Quote
    crit·i·cism:
    1. the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.
    2. the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.

    crit·i·cize
    1. indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.
    2. form and express a sophisticated judgment of (a literary or artistic work).

    The dictionary itself agrees with me and Carnage that criticism requires definition of what the faults are. And no, saying "Poor animations" doesn't even close to do that. Watch "Chopped", "Iron Chef", or any other one of these shows that's a competition, and you'll notice that they ALL have the same thing in common: They document the problem. Why do they do that, you might ask? Because it is required by the definition of the word "criticize" that you indicate/analyze/however-you-wanna-say-it the problem. If someone makes a brand new car, and the exhibit for it has it in a specific color that's horrible-looking, you don't say,"It's a bad car", but you say,"It's a bad color" or something like that, so the person being critiqued can actually learn from his mistakes and better it. Saying that something's "poor" doesn't show how to correct it. Learn the definition of what critiquing is, and apply it, or you'll find that people won't take your advice. Because people can't take your advice if you don't give any!!! It's not that hard to analyze something! Just do it, rather than argue, saying that "it's not criticism", when it's the ONLY type of criticism that exists!

    P.S. KJP, like I said before, has some good criticisms; but on occasion, he loses track and forgets to analyze. It just makes him human. We can all better ourselves in the art of critiquing others' work so that the only results are masterpieces.(Myself included needing to learn this)

    Quote
    It's really difficult to not make a critique sound negative

    Except that the word criticize, by definition, basically means to "analyze" the bad qualities. And analysis isn't negative. Negativity is derived from pessimism, whereas analysis is derived from logistics. Analysis isn't even derived from anything like opportunism or optimism or anything like that, because negativity is completely different and not even close. It's like comparing apples and oranges. You can't say that it's difficult to not make it sound negative if they're not related. That's like saying that "It's really difficult to not make a peanut butter sandwich sound negative". I could easily make it sound negative, by saying something like "Peanut butter sandwiches are evil monsters that try to eat you, and they're using ruby lasers to alter our thoughts," but I could more easily say something like,"I eat peanut butter sandwiches, but they could be better." Same thing. So, likewise, you can easily just document the problems with something when criticizing it, and say that it could be better, and to try specific things to make it better. For example, in the sandwich example, I might say something like,"Jelly instead of honey would make it taste better," which would be a critique of the sandwich, saying that it has a fault of not having the jelly, instead of saying "The sandwich tastes poor". You're making something that's really easy to do sound a lot harder than it is.

    People like you guys who can't take 2 seconds to read something simple and know how to think are the reason that this community is slowly disintegrating into the vast nothingness of a void.

    Most of what Taiko said and everything TurboChaos is 100% correct, that criticism instead of everyone acting like Kindergarten teachers is needed. But that doesn't change the fact that criticism in the proper way is needed, criticism by the definition of the word, as opposed to "criticism" that doesn't show what the problem is.

    Post Merge: March 24, 2015, 08:24:31 PM
    Ironically, I'm actually critiquing you on your definition of what critiquing is. Grin
    « Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 08:24:31 PM by windhunter7 » Logged


    nanobuds
    Overlord Kitten
    ******
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 6754


  • Awards Former PMDT Sniper Diamond in the Rough >9000

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #144 on: March 24, 2015, 08:31:20 PM »


    If you are just gonna take bits and pieces of a definition, not the whole thing, and use it as an argument, then its not worth arguing with you over this.

    Quote
    It's a bad car", but you say,"It's a bad color" or something like that, so the person being critiqued can actually learn from his mistakes and better it.

    ... isn't this what KJP did? He didn't just say "its a bad PSA." He said that the animations were bad... yet you argued his critique? You're creating arguments against yourself dude. Saying the recolors were bad tells the guy that he needs to improve on them. What else is there to say? They're recolors. Its simple.
    Logged

    Nao-chan
    Collab Assassin
    Holy Kitten
    *
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 1321


    That's what comes of under-estimating me.

  • Awards Dedicated Hacker Famous Hacker Starstormer Heart Container

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #145 on: March 24, 2015, 08:35:52 PM »


    Okay this whole, right and wrong of criticism thing has gone on for too long. We don't need 2 pages of what criticism is. I'm sure we all know what it is. So stop bringing it up. You are arguing/debating/whatever the hell this is over nothing at this point. I think everyone understands the general point when this topic was brought up a while ago. I don't think any more needs to be said about criticism. Nano made it clear... Learn to take it... Grow thick skin... And improve. I think that's all that's needed.
    Logged

    WiFi Brawl FC:0606-0014-4748

    You turned into a real boring [censored] while I was away. -Yoko

    Hooray for surpassing 4000 downloads!! Thanks guys!


    windhunter7
    BrawlVault Gatekeeper
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3432

    Check out my website for tutorials and more! :)

  • Awards Famous Hacker Featured RAGE!! Fiery Topic

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #146 on: March 24, 2015, 08:39:12 PM »


    But that's just it; if the person sees his recolors or his animation as fine or anything, he needs another opinion. And if there's no opinion on what the problem is, but just that it exists(i.e. "A bad recolor") that doesn't help. For example, when I asked for my Vibrant Fire Mario to get critiqued, KJP gave a definition of what could be improved for it, and it is a recolor. He said "The red is too bright, but the hue is fine." So KJP actually went along with the definition of the word and said how it isn't good.

    And also, the underlined-bold text is just to emphasize the words in the definitions that you're ignoring; it's not to pick apart the definition.

    And Nao-Chan is correct. Stop arguing, and just accept the definition that you yourself gave of it. Actually read your own posts, at least. Then maybe you'll finally listen. As for me, this is the last thing that I am going to say on critiquing. I could easily go on, but Nao-Chan suggested not to. I advise that everyone else does the same.
    Logged


    Afterthought
    Extreme Kitten
    *******
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 382

  • Awards Ninja Renowned Hacker >9000

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #147 on: March 24, 2015, 08:41:33 PM »


    I ponder whether the people on this forum have anything better to do with their lives other than fight with each other over "bad mods" and talk [censored] to each other. Perhaps not frequenting it everyday can do you all some good.
    Logged

    so im just saying hopefully somebody can look into this if not ill probably take a shot at it later on because right now im too busy partying with some [censored]es

    Large Leader
    Brotherrrrrrrr
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3036


    Metal Gear

  • Awards Diamond in the Rough Active Contributor Renowned Hacker Super Saiyan Topic

  • View Profile Awards
    « Reply #148 on: March 24, 2015, 08:45:11 PM »


    If you're arguing about how people interpret and perceive a dictionary definition, then please get another [censored] argument.
    So for the sake of this discussion, I'm not even going to address it.

    And no, saying "Poor animations" doesn't even close to do that.

    They do.
    While it isn't thorough, it is a valid criticism of an animation.
    What you're talking about is analysis. Those are two different things.

    Quote
    I could easily make it sound negative, by saying something like "Peanut butter sandwiches are evil monsters that try to eat you, and they're using ruby lasers to alter our thoughts,"

    Okay, I didn't want to analyze more bull[censored], but seriously this is breaking every bull[censored] meter across the world. Even in [censored]ing Somalia.
    That isn't making it sound negative, it's straight up false.
    False =/= negative

    Quote
    People like you guys who can't take 2 seconds to read something simple and know how to think are the reason that this community is slowly disintegrating into the vast nothingness of a void.

    More [censored]ing fingerpointing. We don't need this.
    EVERY individual had SOMETHING to do with the degredation of this community.
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that I'm to blame.
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that Nano is to blame.
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that KJP is to blame.
    And it shouldn't come as a surprise to you either that you're to blame.
    You aren't in the right. Get over yourself.

    Quote
    Most of what Taiko said and everything TurboChaos is 100% correct, that criticism instead of everyone acting like Kindergarten teachers is needed.

    Now follow their advice.

    Quote
    But that doesn't change the fact that criticism in the proper way is needed, criticism by the definition of the word, as opposed to "criticism" that doesn't show what the problem is.

    When someone says "Poor animation", it usually means everything is [censored]ed up.
    Logged



    Quote from: Miacis
    In other words, LURK MORE.
    Quote from: LC-DDM
    In other news, birds fly, sun shines, fishes swim, and the sky is [censored]ing BLUE.
    Quote from: Miacis
    3. ... You seriously don't know who Clinton is?
    Quote from: Haseyo
    If only hacking Brawl paid bills.
    Quote from: Nanobuds
    O snap
    Quote from: DrPanda
    But you are in a Smash Bros. thread.
    You can't have an opinion here.

    windhunter7
    BrawlVault Gatekeeper
    Angel Kitten
    ***
    Offline Offline

    Posts: 3432

    Check out my website for tutorials and more! :)

  • Awards Famous Hacker Featured RAGE!! Fiery Topic

  • View Profile WWW Awards
    « Reply #149 on: March 24, 2015, 08:55:33 PM »


    Ok; ordinarily, I wasn't going to say anything more about this. But this statement...
    Quote
    Okay, I didn't want to analyze more bull[censored], but seriously this is breaking every bull[censored] meter across the world. Even in [censored]ing Somalia.
    That isn't making it sound negative, it's straight up false.
    False =/= negative

    is driving me crazy. "I hate peanut butter sandwiches", in contrast to my comment "I eat peanut butter sandwiches, but they could be better." There. Happy? A similar meaning, but one has more negativity, and both could be true.

    That, and, also this comment:
    The dictionary itself has these synonyms for "Critique": analysis, evaluation, assessment, appraisal, appreciation, criticism, review, study, commentary, exposition, exegesis
    Not to mention that "analysis" is the first listed synonym. So no, they're not 2 different things.

    Ok. Now that I got those two statements out of my head, I can ignore the other comments that I so want to answer, but know that I shouldn't, as this thread should stop talking about criticism.

    Quote
    So for the sake of this discussion, I'm not even going to address it.
    Yup. You totally did that. -_-
    Logged


    Pages:  1 ... 7 8 9 [10] 11 12
    Print
    Jump to: