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Project M is a -very- serious and -very- professional mod. With that said, it is an unauthorized modification of a licensed game. Some of the gaming venues I've been to have been sent cease and desist letters from Nintendo for being caught having Brawl mods, unfortunately meaning no Project M would be had at said events. That means that no matter how noble of an effort Project M is, no matter how hard they worked on it, that does not change what Project M is.


Now I know the PMBR goes to great lengths to change the reputation of Brawl mods and also to protect the stability and reputation of Project M. All the same, I still see mods of Project M content sometime being reported. A .gct that added many other codes from other less balanced/more obsolete projects such as Brawl + and Brawl - seemed to have been reported, and seems to have had its description edited to say not to "massacre" such a great game, but the mod didn't break any of kc-mms rules (and is still there, as such. I want to add that I am sure the purpose of this mod was either for fun, or for experimentation). The instant Project M 1.0 came out I started modding it just to see how they got everything to work. I've written about my findings on a wiki article, and have found it modded by someone who according to my research very well might be a part of the PMBR. While they avoided the intellectual offence of removing the information about my finds (which I posted for educational purposes, the pursuit of knowledge), the edit got rid of some of the details that could have been seen as instructional and took on a somewhat antagonistic tone, claiming we should not mod the content we are "privileged" to have. I see what they're trying to do, but I just think it comes off as hypocritical and a little immature.


We should be very thankful that so many people got together and made something like Project M, and we should be respectful of the PMBR. However, if you are respectful of what you are modding, perhaps in a fashion similar to the Classic Stage Expansion 5.2 m mod (adding a disclaimer to the strap screen or something), shouldn't it be okay to edit Project M? The files are made available freely on the internet. When you edit that .gct or .pac file with your own content it becomes your own intellectual property the same way the files from Brawl became there own when they edited them. Aren't they just being like Nintendo at this point?


I am aware that Project M has put boards on there own forum where mods can be submitted, and this does help towards the effort of controlling how many less than professional get out to the public, which can be good, and what this does mean is that they do to a certain extent support modding Project M if it is in a controlled environment, but for those who go elsewhere I really think they are coming off as hypocritical to try and stop people from modding Project M content. The files are freely available, we are entitled to mod them under the same logic that we ALL, including them, are entitled to edit files from Brawl.


The point I am trying to make here is I want to know what other modders think of this.

Throw me, ds22 or Eternal Yoshi a name if you can (PM if you want it to be more confidential).  We're all pretty active in the PMBR and know the team well

While there isn't much we can do about people modding Project M, we don't heavily support it since it could lead to situations where the modifications made to the official release could be misinterpreted as being an actual part of Project M, and due to several reasons, we don't want that.
And while we do have a subforum on Smashboards dedicated towards Project M mods, they are mostly aesthetic of nature, which doesn't involve editing the moveset nor the codeset in any (serious) way.

Also, there is a reason why we don't want people to modify the movesets and especially the codeset, and that is because it all simply isn't finished yet.
We don't want unfinished codes roaming the internet for the simple fact that they are just not finished, and neither do we want people to edit the movesets as that firstly could cause the misinterpretation that it might be an actual part of Project M and secondly the fact that they as well aren't fininshed, and movesets based on Project M will potentially have to be updated again and again with every new update.

So I'm sorry if you think you are entitled to edit everything about Project M, but we don't want people to have a miss drawn image of Project M, especially since it's still unfinished in so many ways, and we will simply not encourage nor assist people in doing so.


P.S. I seriously wonder about those cease and desist letters they got, and how the PMBR never heard of them.
Think you could indulge us with the supposed C&D orders?


P.P.S. Like SiLeNtDo0m suggested, could you tell either him, me or Eternal_Yoshi, either in public or private who this person might have been?

I'm more interested in the fact some P:M stuff can't be used in Brawl. :B

I might have the chance next time the event that has been disallowed Brawl mods is on to ask them about the C&D letter in more detail. As disappointing as it was that we couldn't have mods, especially Project M, it sort of made sense to me, as I know Nintendo does have representatives that check out some of the gaming events in Norcal, and that Nintendo has a history of not being fond of Brawl mods. In fact I remember being told multiple Norcal events have been sent C&D letters for having Brawl mods. Also, several years back, Fanimecon had a similar case of being C&D'd by Konami for having a cabinate set up with In The Groove on it. I only bring this up because it seems that high profile events in Norcal seem to get this kind of attention often from gaming companies.

On TV Tropes, months ago last year during the time that Project M 2.1 was the most recent version, I added an entry describing how Project M features the trope known as "The Dev Team Thinks of Everything". It read as such.



Now that I go back and re-read my post I realize I probably could have taken a better tone. For a while I treated Brawl mods like a way of sticking it to Nintendo for making Brawl so.... well. Lets just say modding pointed out a lot of flaws in Brawl, so I kind of automatically took that attitude when I was in the mood to talk about Brawl mods. I mistakenly lumped in Project M this way, forgetting that the PMBR has put a lot of love and care into this game. Project M 2.5 slapped sense into me and I've approached Project M with a very serious tone ever since. With that said, inevitably somebody known on tvtropes as "zoom32" would come to improve my post although it took a tone very similar to the one ds22 used. While I know why you don't want people modding Project M, the fact of the matter is that Project M does not exist for profit. It is not wrong to edit freeware. The nature of the post immediately felt that I made somebody involved with the PMBR almost angry with my entry.



It sounded like it was coming from the point of view who treats Project M like there is a piece of themselves in it, and he said it so "as a matter of fact"-ly. Searching TVtropes and Google for zoom32 showed that most of his edits had to do with Project M, systematically updating all relevant articles with information about Project M almost immediately as it was available and in some instances even slightly before. Google showed that many of his posts on other forums also show him informing others of Project M or talking about Smash and fighting games. I would like to point out the reason I ever modded Project M in the first place was to see how some of the codes used in the game work and see how much modding is possible. I was curious to see if the dev team truly did "think of everything". As Project M is a Brawl Mod I assumed that the PMBR wouldn't mind the idea of people getting creative and making mods based on there engine, perhaps ones that are well made and create unique, uncharted possibilities for characters to use Melee tech skill in ways older character designs wouldn't make possible. I saw Project M's codeset as something that increases the potential for PSAs. I dreamed of using it far beyond its intended purpose for the purpose of science. I understand now how seriously the PMBR takes Project M's reputations. Project M 2.5 showed me by including so many flavorful. attractive stages by Mewtwo2000, fantastic team color and alternate skills, and so much content packed into each character that they have seen what modders have done and responded to it in an incredibly professional matter by including high quality textures and stages that cater to the wants and desires of typical modders and allows us all to enjoy the fruits of there labor be it in the form of a far from flatly colored Shiny Charizard or the answer of how to leave behind that tired old Final Destination from before BY just playing the standard unmodded Project M.

AAAAAAAANYways, it seems that later on zoom32's post would be edited down to a more neutral tone more appropriate for TVtropes by somebody else. I've watched it go through a few revisions actually. It currently reads.



If you are familiar with TVtropes, Copy Protection is an article. So in the above post, that links to a description of what TVtropes defines as Copy Protection by its many definitions, and lists examples. The instance in which Copy Protection was added to the entry is one of the most recent edits.

The mod in question that seems to have had its description edited in addition to being reported is on this page: http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php#Page=2&Type=Misc%Other&Moderated=All&facebook=true (http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php#Page=2&Type=Misc%Other&Moderated=All&facebook=true)

It's called "RSBE01.gct Gecko OS Edited Version for Project M V2.1 [Only] [Homebrew Version] [Fix] by Crashouti", it is still up, as it should be. It is not breaking any kc-mm rules to my knowledge. I personally think that this mod allows lots of possibilities to be explored, these unique expansions being possible due to Project M and how its engine adds so much depth. I believe the main idea behind this mod is to include as many good features throughout the history of Brawl modding as possible. I can see how some people would find that doing so allows for a more rich experience, as personalizing Brawls codes tend to be for often enough. I really hope that neither of these people are with the PMBR because that means that the PMBR is intolerant of other peoples theories as to what makes a good game, and are intolerant of experimentation and people personalizing there games how thy see fit. I just find it immature. Please do not treat this like I am accusing you of presently having an intolerant attitude. I look down on the people that made these immature sounding edits, regardless of there good intentions. I would be disappointing if they are a part of the PMBR because I would expect the creators of such a professional product to act more professional. I would like to add that I am glad members of the PMBR want to take action about this post, it definitely raises my hope that you guys are not like how people like zoom32 make you seem.

Finally, I would like to mention that the reason why I think some people mod Project M is because modding Brawl seems pointless now. Whenever I play Smash, my game of choice is Project M. Even when non tech skilled friends are over at my place, I still load up Project M. It's more balanced, so the spacing and strategies they know that -do- work pay off more often. Everyone has a great time, and it opens up possibilities for more skilled players to teach new players Melee tech skill in a fun and balanced environment loaded with content enjoyable by all demographics. So basically, I conclude Project M is just a better game than Brawl, everyone I know, Pro or Cas, seems to agree. While personal experience does not account for facts, this seems to be the trend whenever I go to other Smash communities as well. I will meet people that prefer classic Melee, and I will meet people who find Brawl more familiar, but nobody I have ever met has denied how impressive Project M is. So why would anyone make mods for Brawl anymore? Brawl is an inferior game to Project M. I believe this is also why Balanced Brawl seems to have become completely irrelevant (although as someone who -has- put a lot of work into being good at Brawl, I myself appreciate it).

I hope this post has been helpful, I eagerly await your feedback.

-and there's that tone and attitude again that grinds my nerves in the edit to your article before it was edited with a more neutral tone.

I know the PMBR Team doesn't need to be making this for the public, but for someone to go as far as to use the phrase "isn't privileged with" in the same sentence as "the public", making it seem like it's some gift from god. I dunno about you all but that points to someone who treats what he's doing with an attitude of hubris in my book.

Modding Brawl seems pointless?

Oh okay so we're just going to pretend Brawl hacking didn't come from Brawl and it came from P:M instead.

There's a difference between Brawl hacking and P:M hacking. Brawl hacking is open-range, you can do whatever the hell you want and literally anyone can download it if they choose so, regardless if the quality is good (properly rigged model imports) or not (every Sonic OC ever), and there is little restrictions (bar actual game programming) on what you can do. P:M has everything run through a fine, thin comb several times when something is changed, because in a sense there is a lot of work going into one mod that does the most radical of changes. As such, there's a standard of quality. I'm not going to pretend I like the project but one does have to admit that this is as close as it'll get to some in regards of developing a game due to the sheer amount of effort for each and every single aspect of P:M, even if it's just taking the foundations of a house and adding a basement to it.

I also like how you said Project M is "better" than Brawl. Why? Because it's an Ascended Clone of Melee? If Smash 4, 5, 6, 3DS get the ability to be modded, are we going to have P:M for those too? The thing is people deem Melee to be the holy grail of Smash, which, even if it is their right, they're also declining any possible chance of a future installment being better simply because it's not Melee.

Also people make mods for Brawl because without mods for Brawl you can't have mods for P:M. Also way to go on insulting a whole community while pandering to just one demographic (not a small one, clearly, but still). And wasn't BBrawl just Brawl tournified without bringing major changes anyway?

With that said, I still don't see the point of not letting P:M movesets not play in vB.

I thought for a while about whether I should release a P:M version of the Classic Expansion Pack. I eventually decided to do it because I was only editing stages, not characters, and I figured adding these stages might get a few more people to try P:M.

After all, the characters are what make P:M what it is, whereas some of the stages in P:M (especially the non-tourney-legal ones - Flat Zone 2 anyone?) are still Brawl holdovers. Since those stages were still on the SSS and not removed like the unfinished characters, I figured the PMBR wasn't as protective about the stage selection.

Also, I've gotten used to having stage expansion available - it helps me avoid making decisions about which stages to keep!

P.S. Another minor motivation was putting Yoshi's Island (Melee) back into the game. I have fond memories of playing Melee on that stage with max items.

I never meant to imply that Brawl modding wasn't what lead to Project M, I think claiming that would be asinine. I am trying to say that I think modding for Brawl instead of Project M now that Project M is out seems more often than not, pointless. Project M can be just as free range and the deeper engine allows for more possibilities with PSA's. The engine allows you to exploit Melee tech skill in whole new ways when programming moves. No matter what, Project M has more gameplay options than Brawl. It's the same mods with everything the engine adds on top of that. Because of this, I think Project M mods are inevitable, a phenomena represented by the ever increasing amount of mods to Project M content. Many seasoned veterans of the community have moved onto making there mods based off of Project M as a source, and the demand for these mods is clearly there and is clearly increasing.

Anyways, Project M is a better game because it's more balanced, features stage striking, removes the input lag programmed into Brawl by default, features less stages considered annoying by what seems to be the majority of Smash players, pro or casual, includes fan favorite stages removed in Brawl, features better team textures, can be patched by the PMBR when there are glitches or balance issues, removes illogical and disappointing textures in favor of fan favorite character designs, removes stuff put in the game for blatant advertising like Wario's Warioware inspired moveset, features more tech skill which means deeper gameplay, removes obviously broken elements of Brawl like characters with way to much recovery like Snake, Pokemon weaknesses, automatic Pokemon switches, Pokemon not having Down-B's, Pokemon slowly growing fatigued which forces you to switch to a character with a potentially unfavorable match up, random tripping, includes the option for two players to have different amounts of stock, includes Input Assistance which helps players get better which improves the overall gameplay of the community and thus allows a deeper gaming experience, allows infinite replays, allows infinite camera, changes stage collision to better take advantage of the wall jumping mechanic. Fixes unfavorable or broken stage elements by adding, changing, and removing certain ledges and collisions, allows a higher amount of viable stages (viable being defined as not overwhelmingly unplayable to certain characters or in certain match ups, and makes stages less random which is important for characters that have less defensive options, besides making the stage more viable for a game that people put thousands on the line for). Do I need to go on?

Brawl is fine, I like Brawl, I have probably played Brawl more than any other game. It is this love for Brawl that has allowed me to over time become educated about its flaws. Project M is built better, period. That has nothing to do with it being a Melee clone, it has to do with them trying to make the most appealing smash game possible and making a mark on all demographics of players. It applies game theory way better than Brawl does. Sakurai even admitted many of the mistakes he made in Brawl, mistakes Project M fixes, mistakes Sakurai said he would not make in Smash 4.

Balanced Brawl is a game that made Brawl more balanced without making many more changes. However, it did NOT gain the same notoriety that Project M did because it wasn't built as well from a professional standpoint. Brawl is popular, Brawl mods are popular. If Balanced Brawl was better or at least comparable to Project M, it would be popular. It is not popular. It's considered obsolete by most informed members of the community. Many non tech-skilled players I know still prefer Project M to Brawl. They play it like Brawl, but enjoy changes such as ones made to the Pokemon, and easter eggs, and stages, and to the characters in general. They also enjoy the more balanced gameplay. It is pretty much the most balanced Brawl mod, and what isn't balanced right now will be fixed by the constantly active and at work PMBR. They have gone above and beyond what any mod has ever done for a game. It is probably the most extensive mod in gaming history, if not, close to it, and incredibly useful.


I am glad you posted this, it says a lot. I just don't think the line between respecting Project M and expressing your digital media rights is as clear as some make it out to be. We should be allowed to experiment if we are respectful in the process, and people know to make it very clear that the game has been altered like you did. You justified what you did, and I think as long as you can justify it as well as you did, in other words, as long as you are sure it is for the greater good of enjoying Smash, I see nothing wrong with modding Project M, even characters. I know the internet is a ravenous, all consuming machine that is very hard to control, but what the PMBR has done very well, regardless of the implications of the tone I speculate some of its members or supporters may have taken on, is let people know that  they want there reputation preserved. They should continue to do be effective at letting people know that the distinction between our mods and theirs should be made very clear, but I think there are other ways to go about it that don't imply untrue things about what data is ours and what data is theirs by using terms like "privileged" and "unauthorized". However, I do not want anyone to think I am putting all of this effort into a simple issue of semantics. I think that there attitude effects the greater good of Smash Bros modding negatively.

My intention is less to call anyone out and more to reach a common understanding. I am glad so many prevalent members of the PMBR and the Smash modding community have read what I have to say. I feel like by discussing this I could learn a lot by hearing what the PMBR thinks about my opinion.

Here's the thing for me ESPeR.

Though Project M is a better built game, and I enjoy it. The majority of it's changes come from Melee, and as of yet, as far as I have played with 2.5, Melee things are the only big changes to the game itself at all. If you don't count the characters. A few of the characters have me worried of the direction Project M will go in.

It's namely the Top Tiers from Melee, as it stands. They are just as they were in Melee, pretty much. As nice as it might be for this to be so. That's not what I wanted (I'm using myself as an example here, I do not speak for everyone and will never claim to do so) to see with them.

What I was hoping for is new mechanics to be introduced to the Top Tiers and the Veterans. Lucario for example, although not a veteran, got a complete revamp, he kept some of his old tricks and got quite a few new ones to go along with it. Then you have veterans like Bowser, who by comparison didn't really gain much except his Super Armor and the Koopa Klaw.

For example: Falco state's he prefer's the air, why not make changes to his moveset to reflect that? Give him a fantastic air game and a mediocre ground game. Then have Fox be an average between Falco and Wolf, who could have a fantastic ground game and a mediocre air game? Nuances like that can define a character, and can also make them great in their own right.

Right now, Falco -from my experience- is a very much ground-oriented character, and Melee's engine makes this even more so because of his fast fall speed. The only thing that would supplement his air game right now is his fantastic initial jump height.

The PMBR Team won't do something like this however, for maybe one of several or a combination of reasons: They deem such things to not be competitive,  it doesn't fit in with Project M's mission, or they would probably end up sending the Melee veterans into a pissfest if they changed one of their precious characters in such a way. Problem is that right now, Falco and Fox are clones as they were before and have been. Diversifying them would be a great thing in my view, however.

Wolf in fact is the most diverse of the Space Animals in Project M at the moment. He has a set of moves that resemble Fox and Falco's, but they are utterly diverse by comparison to the aforementioned Star Fox team members. To top it all off, Falco copying Fox in almost every respect isn't his style character-wise anyway. He'd rather do things his way. Thus why I think there is a need to diversify the two. Making him as diverse from Fox as Wolf is to both of them.

For other characters like Luigi, being a semi-clone of Mario is alright because of their relationship as brothers in game canon. The Space Animals have no such connection, and I find the fact that Fox and Falco are on the same team to be a poor excuse for making him a nigh-perfect clone of Fox.

That's how I think it should be: a game where no character is a complete clone of another, and where the majority are diversified beyond mere nuances. Which is what Falco is: the only reason he's not a true clone of Fox is because of nuances and nothing more, but even those are not enough to make him diverse from Fox.

Except not really, that's just bull[censored] you're claiming. Right now it's the exact opposite, and it's because of the P:M team being so determined to finetune -everything-, it won't be at a "final" release any time soon. And we both know the "final" release won't ever come because there'll always be a thing or two that isn't filed down so it doesn't look jagged like the rest. Face it, at most what P:M gets in terms of modding is one or two new FD recolors.


Nnnnnnnnot really. P:M is pretty closed source and they're not just going to let it be modded all willy-nilly. Also how can P:M have more gameplay options than Brawl? It has literally the same menus. The only thing I can see that would count is Stage Strike and Specific Stock, maybe the buffer stuff, but overall it's the same bloody thing. It just has that Melee scent.


Yyyyyyeah balance is all made out to be Melee-like. So Melee toptiers stay tops, bottoms stay bottoms, and everyone else gets a middle ground. Not an accurate description, I'm well aware, but BB did it in a way that doesn't feel tacked-on. Also gettin' reeeeeeeeeal tired of your "pro or casual" [censored]. If you know casuals you'd know they wouldn't care about "annoying stages" and they'd actually like them.




Congrats. With the exception of the red stuff, everything you just said can be done in regular Brawl. What was the point here, again?
Funny thing, the ones in red aren't really that necessary. At most, maybe the Specific Stock because it would be fun, but other than that I really don't see how that makes Brawl any deeper if you're playing with anything that isn't a GameCube controller (which is another different point entirely, because HEY you can't play with the controller you like, but whatever).


So did you and everyone else.


Are you sure it has nothing to do with it being a Melee "clone"? Because really, show me something where at one point people gave Brawl a chance for being a new installment, and I'll show you people that are lying, because Melee is really the only "good" Smash game in their eyes. Also, there's a difference between a hobby mod, even if built better, and a group of people who sacrifice hours upon hours of their lives, sleeping in the office even, and being constantly rushed by fans to release the game. Sakurai damn near killed himself working too hard, and yes, the product wasn't polished, but there is no one to blame but the fans' greed for wanting the game.


It was Brawl modded to make the game less tier-dependant without making major changes. That was the point of BB.


Thank you, Captain Obvious.



Well NO [censored] it's obsolete. P:M is there isn't it? If it wasn't and BB would sit a few more years I bet BB would flourish.


That's alright I guess, but..


Hm... that's funny, I'm sure some of the Valve games everyone loves started out as their own mods. But hey, you're the apparent "gaming history" expert.




Overall, it just sounds like you're fangasming/brown-nosing and giving way too much credit over a mod.

And [censored], I think you beat Miacis in the "Lots of Words" category.

Oh hey, I heard my name. :>
I could probably stay around here and play the debate on the PMBR's weird communication tactics, but for now, I'll just focus on the only specific point in the OP that concerns KCMM:


http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=27497 (http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=27497)
The edit in its description is just Crashouti, the author, answering to that stupid report (we get those everyday). It wasn't edited by anyone in the Staff here. In other words, the PMBR doesn't seem like it had anything to do with this incident. It's more like we just had an angry fanboy reporting it, and the author (clumsily) answered it in the description.

Only a BV Staff member or an administrator should be able to edit descriptions, and (unless I'm mistaken), we don't have any PMBR members in it. Actually, there's Thany, but it's not like she's very active, or so disrespectful she would do something like that.
Since that would be overstepping the boundaries of our home rules, none of them should have any reason to remove any of those P:M mods, unless other important rules are broken. Our personal philosophy here is more about how everyone should be able to share hacks and mod their Brawl the way they like it.
There are limits of course, mainly regarding theft and plagiarism, but experimentation based on other's work (with proper credits) isn't something which is frowned upon, here.

Heck, there's a reason why full Packs have been forbidden from the Vault for the longest time. The idea has always been that people should be able to individually pick what they like, and not be burdened with downloading a whole freakin' SD card just for a few select hacks.


Okay, I guess I'll drop a word or two about that whole issue, but here's the thing:

Why are you releasing unfinished movesets/codesets publicly if you fear that your communication skills aren't good enough to stop any potential "fakes"?
If this wasn't a hack and a clear violations of copyright laws, I'd probably suggest to purchase a license that defines how many modifications to the intellectual property are allowed and by who. But you can't do that (since you're technically not respecting intellectual property yourselves), so maybe you should :

1) Crank up on the communication to make sure that people know exactly what is the real Project M, and have a figurehead of sorts be famous enough to release statements whenever a truly threatening ""impostor"" arises.

2) Just don't release things that you don't want people to mod.

Since you guys can't have any control on what we are allowed to do with your stuff, there really aren't any other solutions. However, trying to hold a crusade against people doing things that they have all the right in the world to do certainly isn't going to do your reputation any good.

Like, as an example, I really like the sentence "it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work". It has a certain irony to it, considering that the PMBR is mostly just that: random hackers altering and distributing work made by other hackers from the whole Brawl hacking community.
Trying to be very closed-source when basing your work on very open-source-even-though-it's-illegal material just doesn't sound very right. Especially if the main argument is ... "stability"? If someone mods your engine and it doesn't work properly, then I don't really see how it concerns you guys. It just means he's not a very good hacker and that's it.

---

Also, you guys are getting a lil' bit off-topic. It's supposed to be a discussion about the PMBR, more than the game itself, right? So let's recenter the debate towards that, okay?

The PMBR is big enough these days that we very hardly outsource work anymore. And I can't think of anything in P:M that we haven't spoken with the original creator over. (I spoke with Robzdahero about Dracula's Castle, which iirc is one of our biggest things originally done by somebody outside of the PMBR.)

Simply untrue. While some people want us to more actively change/buff certain characters, we're hesitant on doing so because we want to see how the metagame advances with them. I think there are plenty of "sleeper" characters that are a lot better than the public gives them credit for. This isn't a rare occurrence in fighting games.


Going back to the main topic, I think the PMBR's stance of modding P:M has been wildly exaggerated and twisted. We're fairly open to modding most parts of Project M - There are numerous unofficial "P:M Ready" characters such as Roy that have been made by (At the time) not PMBR members. There's a large chunk of stages out there "tweaked" for P:M. (A lot of these don't even have stuff like our Camera changes, which are fairly important to the 'feel' of P:M, but we're not cracking down on that.)

People have made mods of the P:M HUD, of the character select screen, and of our stage selection screen. (Although less-so in 2.5 because that one is awesome.) We've allowed or even publicly encouraged all of this.

So with all that said, there's stuff we don't like people touching. Yet. We don't like people trying to make unreleased characters accessible, for fairly obvious reasons. (Why play 2.5b if you can play 2.5b with all unreleased characters?) We don't like people ripping stuff off of P:M without acknowledging it. (We had issues a year or two back with a fairly popular hacker stealing our stuff from an ancient leak, while simultaneously trying to call P:M shoddy. The KC-MM staff were quite supportive of us trying to close that stuff down, and we appreciated it.)

With all that said, it seems like this is turning into a thread of 10,000,000 words about a fairly minor disagreement on us on development. And a disagreement that we've stated numerous times is because we're still WIP. We have plans of making a lot of our behind-the-scenes works available to the public when we've hit "Gold." We've also released a good chunk of codes out to the public. We've added to the documentation of modules, variables, article floating points, etc. And next release, we'll undoubtedly have even more cool stuff to share with the public.

tldr; The PMBR likes to keep its cards close to its chest for hype and surprises for releases. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. It keeps things fun for us, and the information ultimately gets released to the public.

Wait, someone mentioned pm content not working in vBrawl? What exact content are you speaking about? I can't think of anything that we deliberately disabled for use in vBrawl. If something doesn't work, it's because it needs codes that make pm what it is to function, which you wouldn't want in vBrawl.

Basically, if some things don't work in vBrawl, it's not some sinister plot to engineer it that way.

Except you missed the part I said it wasn't an accurate description, meaning I was aware I could be wrong. And okay, go with "don't change, see how metagame acts". Fine and dandy. But that means that alternate possibilities for a character (Falco being, like Velen said, better on air) won't be tried out at all, will they?


All I want is a PAL release, really. Okay, and PAL versions of some codes that -have- been released, but other than that not much.


I had heard 2.5 movesets don't work in vB. Which sucks ass because that Snake is feels more like something out of Konami than the vanilla, which feels more like something Michael Bay just [censored] out as a "tribute" to Metal Gear.

LC-DMM: I'm.. not even going to bother going into too much detail. Somebody from the PMBR already said most of what I need to say. The red statements you highlighted are not untrue like you said, and you can figure that out by playing Project M 2.5, or even going on the website and reading the news updates or change list. Melee fans don't like that there are such bad characters in Melee, just like Brawl players don't like how the bottom four characters are literally and statistically broken. Project Ms tournament scene and heck, honestly even the frame data prove that they have succeeded at balancing the broken characters in both Melee and Brawl. Ike is AWFUL in Brawl from a statistical standpoint, determined by match-ups, frame data, and money match statistics. There ARE great Brawl Ike players and they still do best when equally skilled players play similar tier characters, especially Shiek. Anyways, an Ike main got second place at Melee FCs Project M tourney. Many top-tier characters have had chaingrabs removed, such as Ganondorf and Falco.

I've already gone on much longer than I would prefer, I think it's silly you're slinging ad-homonym attacks and aggression in a thread criticizing a group of people of doing the same thing and the negative repercussions of that. Everybody else has been able to talk on a respectable, down to earth level, and show that they are knowledgeable. A lot of the people in this thread helped work on a game that a lot of people play. I'm very happy to be able to communicate with them on this level.

Velen: There are quite a few changes to vets. Falco retains his "spin and spin and spin and spin" attack from Brawl for added spacing options. Mario becomes like a combination of both Mario and Dr. Mario, Dr. Mario being a relevant character in Melee tourneys. Ganondorf retains Flame Choke for tech-chasing. Bowser's design was assisted by Gimpyfish, a well known Bowser player, and now features exploitation of heavy armor.  Uhm, there's more. There's a changelog. Anyways, you raise a good point. Project M will never break -too- far away from Melee. Even when they make changes it's to fit in line with a Melee like play-style. That's why I think more people should take advantage of the engine and make there own games that use it.

Miacis: Thank you! That is really helpful information, and already changes a lot about what I believe. I just assumed somebody from the PMBR worked for KC-MM and made the edit after the report.

Shadic: I guess you're right, to be fair it's not like I see this reported phenomena of anti-modding behavior very often. I just noticed it and really wanted to know what you guys thought. I'm... pretty satisfied with all I've learned in this thread, actually. Thank you, too. I do know that the game is a WIP, but I think as long as people make it clear that there mod is a mod, than some of the things discovered by modders that actually are good could be incorporated somehow. Like a collective effort on the part of the community. But yeah, you gotta put your foot down somewhere. I understand and even respect that, and I have a better opinion of the whole situation now that I've had the chance to learn more. Some Project M players are gonna be very adamant about seeing that the game they love is respected, hype does things to people, and that's alright.


That's interesting, and good to know.

Why would we completely redo a character that is widely popular and has enjoyed a decade of tournament success? That'd be a slap to people who enjoy that character as he currently plays. Not to mention how much criticism we've already gotten for being too "change happy" on things that we didn't need to touch. (There was a huge outcry when we removed Wario's bike, for example.)

Project M is being made to appeal to several types of gamers. Oftentimes these different "bases" have wildly different opinions on things. We try and keep in mind how these things will "sell" to the public, but ultimately we do what we think is best for the project with the resources, goodwill, and time we have available.


Making everything PAL-ready would essentially double the amount of work we'd have to do. Which is why we're not planning a PAL release until after we go "Gold."


We had to restructure some engine stuff, which is why every 2.5 character has a .rel file in 2.5. It'll crash without them. It's not something we did to dissuade people from using 2.5 characters in Brawl, it's something we did to make the game the best that it can be.


Edit: Adding in a few minor things that I missed before that I think should be addressed.


Melee fans were extremely excited for Brawl. Just because the game ended up disappointing them doesn't mean they were never willing to accept something new.

Watch Gimpyfish (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gEg7hNpKM) a well-known Bowser player and eventual PMBR member talk about Brawl before it came out. People were huge on every bit of Brawl news they could pick up on, and definitely tried their hardest to enjoy the game when it came out. If they sound/act conservative now, it's probably because Nintendo hasn't made a Smash game they've enjoyed in over a decade.



Just so you know, Melee was the game that he pushed himself for. (http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash) Your comment seems to be referring to Brawl, which isn't quite accurate.

Well tried! That was almost right. (http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/aloy.gif)
But the word is Ad Hominem. It's about directing an attack towards a person/human. Not towards a ... word that is pronounced and spelt the same as another (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homonym).


Well, I've heard of an opposite tale about using non-PMBR material, though in not enough detail I'm afraid.
I doubt everyone in your team is necessarily as straight with the creators as you say you are yourself, and that's probably why I just keep hearing some bad hearsays about P:M just taking whatever they want from the Vault.  :-\


So ... as a conclusion, you guys keep the Melee characters almost exactly as they were because you do believe it's what "you think is best"? Or because of the public outcry?
Getting some mixed signals there, trying to follow this conversation. Are you doing this because you decided to listen to the anti-change portion of your vastly diverse audience? Or because you, as hackers, believe that these characters would not benefit from being changed from their Melee incarnation?


I do agree on the thieving part of it. Claiming that something you didn't make is yours is certainly not something we enjoy too, but...
I'm curious about the choice of words there. Why "ripping"? oô

(How you set up your quotes makes it look like I don't know how to spell Ad hominem.)

Can you come up with examples? It's a pretty unfair claim to say that "the hearsay" says that we're yanking hacks off of random people.


(http://i.imgur.com/ZMf5snE.png)

Rarely is something black and white. If somebody has criticized it, we've probably had a discussion over it in the backroom.


First word that came to mind. Also I was long ago from the spriting community where people would "rip" sprites from games.  :kdance:

So basically, just keep everything the samey washed-up drivel in favour of pro-favoritism.


Fair enough.


Also fair enough, but I have my personal reasons to wait for it.


If you say so, but that doesn't help me in any way. I mean right now the only way to get the good Snake would be to get 2.1, and unless you made him even more Snake-esque in 2.5, I don't feel I'm going to miss much.


Yeah, because -clearly- you've had an issue earlier making up walls of text that could build a hypothetical house. But, again, not the point here. Moving on.


...that has nothing to do with what I just said. I said that, barring the red bits (meaning, what is -highlighted in red-), everything you mouthed off can be done, word for word, in vB.  You probably understood it wrong and thought that the red wasn't in P:M when it's the opposite, but at this point I don't know if what you say makes sense.


I like how you seperated Melee -fans- from Brawl -players-, despite the fact you used them as if anyone who plays either of those games -has- to be a pro.


Like I said, me respecting the work P:M took doesn't mean I have to like it. You can call it agression, I call it "against the grain".

Shadic, I would agree it was thievery if we weren't talking about a mod that still uses a lot of content from Brawl, including most of the engine. Although, the fact that PM is an unfinished Project and the way it's going so far, I can imagine it'll be mostly original by the time it's done. After all, foreign bootleg merchandise like fake iPhones are basically thieving by using the design of the iPhone, claiming it's theirs, and making profit, so the connotation between modding your content and thievery isn't actually too far off. But isn't that the nature of Brawl mods, and doesn't that in itself change the context?

Or am I misunderstanding, and taking what you said out of context? I feel like I might be.

I would like to add that in programming it is extremely common to take shortcuts by basically not programming what's already been programmed, which is another thing that I think changes the context of what thievery entails with freeware.

Ah, but I wouldn't call changing a new installment into an update of the last one "accepting" something -new-.



I like that guy, if only because he pretty much said "[censored] you" to any tier-addicts and used Bowser when he was low-tier. Respect for him, at least.



Fair enough, misconception on my end. Still, you have to admit that if we were to wait longer instead of demanding for the game to be released, the outcome would be at least more polished. Less glitches, at least. Or maybe more demo builds at different times so there would be a chance to change things before release.

[/quote]

(Fixed. :3)

Well, it's hearsay, and vague one at that, so no, I'm afraid I don't have any actual examples. Some people around here may be more informed than me (I'm rarely involved in these kinds of credits issues, tbh), but I'm just reporting what I heard about P:M taking stuff directly.
I'm a believer that there's no smoke without fire so, again, you might want to look into it and see that nobody is taking for granted any of the stuff that was made outside of P:M. Texture, sounds, specific moves, codes... anything. And if you're already doing it, well... keep going, I guess.


Then, I'm still a bit confused how you guys listened to the anti-change guys for all Melee characters AND think all the Melee characters are better without any major change. But for the Brawl characters, the outcry was apparently rejected several times and redoing the characters was deemed a necessity.

All in all, it doesn't really answer why Melee characters were deemed so perfect. :P

I find this troubling. If someone took something from the vault without asking, a higher ranking PMBR member would/should have noticed/been notified and the situation would have been rectified. We do not use the work of other people if at all avoidable, and we always ask. It'd be very hard for a member to slip in something stolen.

I find the most funny thing, is that when Dracula's Castle went into P:M, news sites across the interwebs deemed it something that hasn't been done before... when you could already do it in --surprise-- vB.

Case of misinformation, but still.

Can you please provide names of people who have mentioned this to you? It's a pretty serious allegation (Especially coming from an Admin of KC-MM) and you seem to be sidestepping effort on our part to track it down.

What makes you think we didn't change Melee characters? Look at Bowser, where his armor is now a major part of his viability. Look at Toon Link, who gets a lot of hate from people wanting Young Link 2.0. We've changed Sheik's DownThrow, much to the distaste of Melee Sheik players. Ganon has a lot of cool new things, etc.

I don't understand how you can believe in "no smoke without a fire," when the allegations in this thread are an example of just that. There is no fire, but you're making smoke.

I don't like it, considering people will read this thread and think it's true just because you said it.

It's just your word against that of others so far, so it's really that I'm trying not to take any side.
And, honestly, do I absolutely need to muzzle myself just because some hearsays 'might' give a somewhat bad image of a SSBB mod? On a thread read by probably like 10 users at most past the first page of walls of text? In posts of mine that I'll probably just erase if it proved to be a completely false lead?
Surely there's been a lot of time and effort that were put into this project. But I think you're taking my ramblings a little too seriously there. :P

I'm not really sure what dropping names here would accomplish besides making these people the direct center of attention (and annoying the limited audience we have here). I'll ask around and try to gather some chatlogs and whatnot and dump-PM them to you later so you can investigate at your leisure if that can reassure you. I'll send a copy to HaloedHero too.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not talking here as a representative of KCMM. At least not past the second quote in my first post.


You'll have to admit, however, that those are very punctual and minor things compared to the changes that some characters like Wario, Lucario, Snake or Lucas underwent. Why didn't, say, Falco get so much attention to be made unique, if we go back on a seemingly popular example? He instead got reverted to his previous clonish state, save for, what? 2 attacks?

And you don't even have to look that far into the issue to see the reason. Quoted diretly from your website :
"Falco Lombardi is a very respected and equally feared name among the competitive Smash community, so it's no surprise that expectations for him are high going into Project M. He was one of the most changed characters from Melee to Brawl, losing many of his tricks and techniques that defined him in the previous game. Project M sees the return of the old bird of prey though, with his technical prowess restored in its entirety."
"As one of Melee's well-known Top Tier characters, great care was taken to recreate Falco's Melee-styled gameplay.

Why was Falco unchanged from Melee? Not because it would make him a more interesting or unique character, but because he was more powerful, "top tier", in Melee, so he needs to go back to it.

I could pursue a similar argument for Ganon. You'd have to be really bold to sustain that this move (http://projectm.dantarion.com/www/img/ganon-01.png) is an improvement for Ganon compared to his SSBB one. It's just trying to "restore" what was changed, completely disregarding the idea of what fits a character. And his Up-Smash is just as silly.

With those and most other Melee vets being systematically "restored" to their older state, it's difficult not to think that P:M's priorities are first to restore the Melee moves of a character, no matter how innappropriate or common, and improving their gameplay with Brawl/New moves only comes as an afterthought.

Sadly, our team has experience verifying when our content has been plagiarized, so there is evidence beyond "our words against theres." It comes down to simply comparing if content/animations are frame-for-frame exact replicas, and given that we keep an ongoing subversion, we have recursive history as our animations have been built and refined over time. For this reason, I find it extremely unlikely that any work for Project M has not been completed internally by our team, given the fairly strict and peer-review standards we have in place. However, our team is interested in understanding these, so we welcome the names/data you offered to provide.


I think it might help you if I share a bit of Project M's history to better answer this question (and who I am, if you are unfamiliar). My history dates back to when I led the development of Brawl+, and left that modding team when I was no longer interested in its development. As someone who thoroughly enjoyed brawl modding, I set-out on a personal project (originally, as purely a thought experiment) to see if I can bring melee falco to brawl because I was a greater fan of melee. There was a lot of interest in this, the team grew, and project m was born with melee falco as a base.

However, I understand your concerns as to how/why we pursue things the way we do. The answer is that, to no surprise, our team was/is fans of melee and we used melee top tiers as our target base to build up to. However, this by no means suggests that we do not accept that brawl content cannot be quality (e.g. preservation of RAR, footstooling). Shadic provided an excellent point of Toon Link, who had a majority of his animations (and underlying moveset coding) built from scratch. He may not look like a radical overhaul like a lucario or wario, but I guarantee the underlying work was there.

This also tees up another point I want to make. The changes we make do not need to be explicitly justified with evidence. Due to the nature that we are building up an entire mod from scratch, I think its understandable that we use our judgement and style and apply the animtions that we believe best aligns with this style. If you think ganon looks better one way, I can argue it looks better the other. We built a team which internally has a strong alignment for specific aesthetics, and our resulting product is reflective of that.

I think the whole thing with Falco has been misdirected and taken off course.

My thing with Falco is the fact he is now back to his clone-ish state. This turns me off personally. Before you pull the "Many vs. Few" card out of somewhere. Allow me to bring something to the table:

Clones was one of the things Melee was criticized for by some people. Falco and Fox, C.Falcon and Ganondorf, Roy an Marth, Dr.Mario and Mario(the former two examples not being in Brawl), were all clones of each other. With mainly aesthetic changes and little nuances. Those little things do not a separate character make, and this is what turns me off with Falco.

I feel that being the who he is, Falco needs to be changed. I know this is a very selfish thing to say, but the Melee veterans be damned, Falco as he is, is too much like Fox. Even with his nuances. It has nothing to do with animations anymore for me. It's his move set and the way it plays.

 I think he needs to be diversified further, and have his gameplay evolved in a new direction. A more air-oriented combo game would work wonders in doing that, giving him new moves or revamping the olds ones, with the goal being keeping opponents in the air as much as possible. making him a little, tiny bit floatier to facilitate that.

That's the kind of changes I want to see to Brawl Veterens and Melee Top Tiers alike. Falco being so much like Fox feels unnatural and it doesn't fit his character. At all, and as I gave with my previous example of Wolf, he has moves recognizable from Fox, but the majority of his moveset differs from Fox's in function and animation alike, and he is the most diverse between the three Space Animals.

That's what Falco needs. He doesn't need to be returned to his Melee roots. He needs true change. He could be just as tourney viable if time was put into making such a moveset to divide between Falco and Fox. Same with Ganondorf.

As I said before. The similarities between Mario and Luigi (whereas they were clones of each other in Smash 64) is passable because they are brothers. It makes sense that Luigi would take after Mario. Fox and Falco share no such relationship, and as the game canon for Star Fox shows, Falco likes to do things his way, and combined with his statement "personally, I prefer the air" and his avian descent, I think it's pretty clear the direction Falco could go in if the team was willing to put effort into such a thing.

It's not about looks, it's about how he plays that disappoints me. Brawl did the right thing bringing further diversity between Fox and Falco, but did it admittedly poorly. So why can't the PMBR do better by truly diversifying them the right way?

Tying this into what Miacis said in his post:


That's a poor excuse to simply revert a character to how they were in the previous game IMHO, and saying "wait a bit and let us see how things play out in Project M 2.5's meta" is an even poorer excuse. I want to see the PMBR do what Sakurai didn't do, and make him a king of air combat. Give him new abilities, and keep a lot of his old-tricks as well, like you did with Lucario. So that way, Fox and Falco are their own characters instead of being near clones as they are.

Ganondorf could stand to get the same treatment as well. Separating him and Captain Falcon further.

I hate to break it to you all.

But they will most likely not ever change the clones to more in character versions of themselves.


In this game's case. It's Melee pros before anyone else... As far as the veterans go.

If we're wanting to see these types of changes... This might have to be a third party mod of... A... Third party... Mod... *Ahem* Anyway. Bottom line. They aren't going to listen to this type of feedback. (Even if it is true, I mean who wouldn't want to see Ganondorf as he is in the games?) But still. It would I guess be tough for a Melee player to get used to the clones being 100% gone...


Although, at the same time. Players like me who played vBrawl a lot would have a hard time getting used to say... Lucas, who plays SO much differently now. (IE, no Zap Jumping.) And having a DACUS... Anyway. That's my 2 cents in this topic... Money well spent. ಠ_ಠ

I don't know why people expect us to do something radical to Falco. It's not about whether there are more/less people who want Falco to go back to being a straight up clone of Fox. The game we set out to make includes making characters who were popular/good in Melee play the way they played in Melee. That was one of our primary goals, and we've been clear about it from the start. It shouldn't come as a disappointment to anyone. If it's a big problem for you, pm is probably just not the brawl mod for you.

This sometimes includes animations simply for utilitarian purposes(such as restoration of range on an attack, etc). I completely understand and even agree with the urge to de-clone Falco, but I don't get why everyone keeps saying the PMBR should be the ones to do it. If you want to see that kind of Falco, crack open PSA and Brawlbox and make it happen.

Brawl characters get more radical changes not because we don't care what Brawl players think, but because they can't stay the same as they are in Brawl without throwing off the game we want to make. So, we take that as an opportunity to do new, interesting things. Indeed, you would have to agree that every character was changed radically from how they are in Brawl, just not from how they are in Melee, because we're trying to make the game more like Melee, not Brawl, which, again, was our mission from the start and shouldn't surprise anyone.

As an aside, Falco really doesn't play that similarly to Fox in Melee. His shine brings his combos airborne, and his crazy jump height makes him good with vertical follow ups. I see him as good in the air. Plus, for me, Falco and Fox's similarities make sense as part of the same team. I understand that you don't feel that way, but that's entirely subjective, and I actually think it works well.

Not really a big deal. I just find it funny how people complained about clones in Melee, then complained about the lack of past characters as clones in Brawl, so to fix it they make them clones again and that somehow makes it okay. Just feels like a zigzag that makes zero sense.

I guess people want PMBR to make it because maybe then it'd be made official, or something.

Snake 2.5 works for me while sonic works but just the down b is not funtional

I completely understand the intent of returning popular Melee characters to their Melee gameplay, but I am still mystified as to why time was spent reverting unique animations to the previous clone versions when, in my mind at least, it is unnecessary from a gameplay standpoint. Things like Ganon's dair and Falco's jabs seem like they could easily maintain both their Melee properties and the more aesthetically appropriate Brawl animations.

But, on topic, while I do feel it's hypocritical for a project modifying another team's work to take steps preventing their work from being modified, it seems as though much of this is simply due to the way PM has to be coded to work, and that's fine.

I think the bottom line is I don't believe the PM team has a right to expect their work to not be modded, but I also don't believe it has any obligation to allow others to mod it. Or to worry about what others want it to be for that matter.

This has probably already been said, but I don't think it's in a fighting games best interest to change a characters popular play style. Also, Falco has an incredible air game. He does up kills and down kills fantastically and does a lot of jumping in his game play. It's like, he has wings, so he can jump and shoot with more efficiency than Fox or Wolf, and guess what, that's what he does. And again, everyones play style has been tweaked. Ganondorf has quite a bit of new life breathed into him, as does ("Dr.") Mario. I don't really play any of the other Melee greats besides Marth and Falcon, who have at least minor amounts of added flare in Project M *run of ledge, taunt cancel* Show me your moves! --> *dropzone knee* YES!

This statement here I feel is incorrect.  Even small animation adjustments can make a large difference to a move feels as a whole and what you can do with the move.  This was already explained before.  For example, a while ago we tried experimenting with giving Falco some more unique moves but with Melee hitboxes (for example transferring moves to his wings instead of his feet whilst trying to keep similar principles) but it just didn't feel right.  Certain moves couldn't do things they could do before, and hurtbox placements were all different for example.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with Falco's jab.  Falco's jab IS his Brawl jab and always has been.  It's the one Brawl move we kept for him.   

Whoever read all that deserves an award.

Hello, OP. I am the real Zoom32. I apologize for the confusion; I wasn't angry at all with your tropes page edit; I just got the impression from the edit that you were unaware that the certain segment of the mod is meant to be closed off, so I made a note for exactly why it's hard to open up the file. I didn't mean to come across as a "f you for trying to break in" guy. I'm sorry if that's what it looked like, though. I was being strictly informational; in fact, I was actually just trying to condense the example information to be more concise, article-esque, and less of a "personal experience" with the game.

You probably already know this, but I am not in the PMBR (though I follow it closely enough to get update information quickly). I'm just a fan.