The PMBR and how they handle those who mod/hack Project M

[ESPeR]

Project M is a -very- serious and -very- professional mod. With that said, it is an unauthorized modification of a licensed game. Some of the gaming venues I've been to have been sent cease and desist letters from Nintendo for being caught having Brawl mods, unfortunately meaning no Project M would be had at said events. That means that no matter how noble of an effort Project M is, no matter how hard they worked on it, that does not change what Project M is.


Now I know the PMBR goes to great lengths to change the reputation of Brawl mods and also to protect the stability and reputation of Project M. All the same, I still see mods of Project M content sometime being reported. A .gct that added many other codes from other less balanced/more obsolete projects such as Brawl + and Brawl - seemed to have been reported, and seems to have had its description edited to say not to "massacre" such a great game, but the mod didn't break any of kc-mms rules (and is still there, as such. I want to add that I am sure the purpose of this mod was either for fun, or for experimentation). The instant Project M 1.0 came out I started modding it just to see how they got everything to work. I've written about my findings on a wiki article, and have found it modded by someone who according to my research very well might be a part of the PMBR. While they avoided the intellectual offence of removing the information about my finds (which I posted for educational purposes, the pursuit of knowledge), the edit got rid of some of the details that could have been seen as instructional and took on a somewhat antagonistic tone, claiming we should not mod the content we are "privileged" to have. I see what they're trying to do, but I just think it comes off as hypocritical and a little immature.


We should be very thankful that so many people got together and made something like Project M, and we should be respectful of the PMBR. However, if you are respectful of what you are modding, perhaps in a fashion similar to the Classic Stage Expansion 5.2 m mod (adding a disclaimer to the strap screen or something), shouldn't it be okay to edit Project M? The files are made available freely on the internet. When you edit that .gct or .pac file with your own content it becomes your own intellectual property the same way the files from Brawl became there own when they edited them. Aren't they just being like Nintendo at this point?


I am aware that Project M has put boards on there own forum where mods can be submitted, and this does help towards the effort of controlling how many less than professional get out to the public, which can be good, and what this does mean is that they do to a certain extent support modding Project M if it is in a controlled environment, but for those who go elsewhere I really think they are coming off as hypocritical to try and stop people from modding Project M content. The files are freely available, we are entitled to mod them under the same logic that we ALL, including them, are entitled to edit files from Brawl.


The point I am trying to make here is I want to know what other modders think of this.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

I've written about my findings on a wiki article, and have found it modded by someone who according to my research very well might be a part of the PMBR.

Throw me, ds22 or Eternal Yoshi a name if you can (PM if you want it to be more confidential).  We're all pretty active in the PMBR and know the team well

[♤♡◇♧]

While there isn't much we can do about people modding Project M, we don't heavily support it since it could lead to situations where the modifications made to the official release could be misinterpreted as being an actual part of Project M, and due to several reasons, we don't want that.
And while we do have a subforum on Smashboards dedicated towards Project M mods, they are mostly aesthetic of nature, which doesn't involve editing the moveset nor the codeset in any (serious) way.

Also, there is a reason why we don't want people to modify the movesets and especially the codeset, and that is because it all simply isn't finished yet.
We don't want unfinished codes roaming the internet for the simple fact that they are just not finished, and neither do we want people to edit the movesets as that firstly could cause the misinterpretation that it might be an actual part of Project M and secondly the fact that they as well aren't fininshed, and movesets based on Project M will potentially have to be updated again and again with every new update.

So I'm sorry if you think you are entitled to edit everything about Project M, but we don't want people to have a miss drawn image of Project M, especially since it's still unfinished in so many ways, and we will simply not encourage nor assist people in doing so.


P.S. I seriously wonder about those cease and desist letters they got, and how the PMBR never heard of them.
Think you could indulge us with the supposed C&D orders?


P.P.S. Like SiLeNtDo0m suggested, could you tell either him, me or Eternal_Yoshi, either in public or private who this person might have been?

[LC-DDM]

I'm more interested in the fact some P:M stuff can't be used in Brawl. :B

[ESPeR]

I might have the chance next time the event that has been disallowed Brawl mods is on to ask them about the C&D letter in more detail. As disappointing as it was that we couldn't have mods, especially Project M, it sort of made sense to me, as I know Nintendo does have representatives that check out some of the gaming events in Norcal, and that Nintendo has a history of not being fond of Brawl mods. In fact I remember being told multiple Norcal events have been sent C&D letters for having Brawl mods. Also, several years back, Fanimecon had a similar case of being C&D'd by Konami for having a cabinate set up with In The Groove on it. I only bring this up because it seems that high profile events in Norcal seem to get this kind of attention often from gaming companies.

On TV Tropes, months ago last year during the time that Project M 2.1 was the most recent version, I added an entry describing how Project M features the trope known as "The Dev Team Thinks of Everything". It read as such.

* TheDevTeamThinksOfEverything: When you try to use a Wii Remote to play the game, the Wii Remote says "Failure" when you pick a character. This is because of how much the Wii Remote limits your ability to play with tech-skill. Players that use the Wii Remote are generally looked down on. Also, in case you're a Brawl modder yourself and you thought you could get the Brawl versions of the characters that aren't yet available in Project M playable by getting rid of the custom code for the Character Select Screen in the gct file (the file that contains the game engine, among other things), they made it so in Demo 1 it would freeze the game, and in demo 2 it would prevent the character from being able to jump. In Demo 2.1, because these effected the single player game poorly, they now made it so selecting a non Project M character off of an unlocked character select screen would just load Mario instead. In any case, this has made making modifications to Project M a real pain in the ass, but this is apparently because the developers do not want anyone releasing there own unofficial full version, thus ruining Project Ms reputation if a bad choice is made or the mods confuse uneducated players.

Now that I go back and re-read my post I realize I probably could have taken a better tone. For a while I treated Brawl mods like a way of sticking it to Nintendo for making Brawl so.... well. Lets just say modding pointed out a lot of flaws in Brawl, so I kind of automatically took that attitude when I was in the mood to talk about Brawl mods. I mistakenly lumped in Project M this way, forgetting that the PMBR has put a lot of love and care into this game. Project M 2.5 slapped sense into me and I've approached Project M with a very serious tone ever since. With that said, inevitably somebody known on tvtropes as "zoom32" would come to improve my post although it took a tone very similar to the one ds22 used. While I know why you don't want people modding Project M, the fact of the matter is that Project M does not exist for profit. It is not wrong to edit freeware. The nature of the post immediately felt that I made somebody involved with the PMBR almost angry with my entry.

The code of the current demo build is locked so that ''Brawl'' modders outside the [=PMBR=] can't easily cheat and access the unfinished characters the public isn't privileged with; in demo 1, trying to access said characters through modding freezes the game, and since demo 2, trying to access the locked characters results in their not being able to jump, and, to further protect the game, if a modder tries to access the unfinished characters by adding and using a fully-unlocked character select screen, the game simply loads Mario instead. (Compare to CopyProtection.) The ''PMBR'' takes the stability of their work (in relation to the public) ''very'' seriously; it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work.

It sounded like it was coming from the point of view who treats Project M like there is a piece of themselves in it, and he said it so "as a matter of fact"-ly. Searching TVtropes and Google for zoom32 showed that most of his edits had to do with Project M, systematically updating all relevant articles with information about Project M almost immediately as it was available and in some instances even slightly before. Google showed that many of his posts on other forums also show him informing others of Project M or talking about Smash and fighting games. I would like to point out the reason I ever modded Project M in the first place was to see how some of the codes used in the game work and see how much modding is possible. I was curious to see if the dev team truly did "think of everything". As Project M is a Brawl Mod I assumed that the PMBR wouldn't mind the idea of people getting creative and making mods based on there engine, perhaps ones that are well made and create unique, uncharted possibilities for characters to use Melee tech skill in ways older character designs wouldn't make possible. I saw Project M's codeset as something that increases the potential for PSAs. I dreamed of using it far beyond its intended purpose for the purpose of science. I understand now how seriously the PMBR takes Project M's reputations. Project M 2.5 showed me by including so many flavorful. attractive stages by Mewtwo2000, fantastic team color and alternate skills, and so much content packed into each character that they have seen what modders have done and responded to it in an incredibly professional matter by including high quality textures and stages that cater to the wants and desires of typical modders and allows us all to enjoy the fruits of there labor be it in the form of a far from flatly colored Shiny Charizard or the answer of how to leave behind that tired old Final Destination from before BY just playing the standard unmodded Project M.

AAAAAAAANYways, it seems that later on zoom32's post would be edited down to a more neutral tone more appropriate for TVtropes by somebody else. I've watched it go through a few revisions actually. It currently reads.

The Dev Team Thinks of Everything: If a modder tries to access the unfinished characters by adding and using a fully-unlocked character select screen, the game simply loads Mario instead. (Compare to Copy Protection.) The PMBR takes the stability of their work (in relation to the public) very seriously; it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work.

If you are familiar with TVtropes, Copy Protection is an article. So in the above post, that links to a description of what TVtropes defines as Copy Protection by its many definitions, and lists examples. The instance in which Copy Protection was added to the entry is one of the most recent edits.

The mod in question that seems to have had its description edited in addition to being reported is on this page: http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php#Page=2&Type=Misc%Other&Moderated=All&facebook=true

It's called "RSBE01.gct Gecko OS Edited Version for Project M V2.1 [Only] [Homebrew Version] [Fix] by Crashouti", it is still up, as it should be. It is not breaking any kc-mm rules to my knowledge. I personally think that this mod allows lots of possibilities to be explored, these unique expansions being possible due to Project M and how its engine adds so much depth. I believe the main idea behind this mod is to include as many good features throughout the history of Brawl modding as possible. I can see how some people would find that doing so allows for a more rich experience, as personalizing Brawls codes tend to be for often enough. I really hope that neither of these people are with the PMBR because that means that the PMBR is intolerant of other peoples theories as to what makes a good game, and are intolerant of experimentation and people personalizing there games how thy see fit. I just find it immature. Please do not treat this like I am accusing you of presently having an intolerant attitude. I look down on the people that made these immature sounding edits, regardless of there good intentions. I would be disappointing if they are a part of the PMBR because I would expect the creators of such a professional product to act more professional. I would like to add that I am glad members of the PMBR want to take action about this post, it definitely raises my hope that you guys are not like how people like zoom32 make you seem.

Finally, I would like to mention that the reason why I think some people mod Project M is because modding Brawl seems pointless now. Whenever I play Smash, my game of choice is Project M. Even when non tech skilled friends are over at my place, I still load up Project M. It's more balanced, so the spacing and strategies they know that -do- work pay off more often. Everyone has a great time, and it opens up possibilities for more skilled players to teach new players Melee tech skill in a fun and balanced environment loaded with content enjoyable by all demographics. So basically, I conclude Project M is just a better game than Brawl, everyone I know, Pro or Cas, seems to agree. While personal experience does not account for facts, this seems to be the trend whenever I go to other Smash communities as well. I will meet people that prefer classic Melee, and I will meet people who find Brawl more familiar, but nobody I have ever met has denied how impressive Project M is. So why would anyone make mods for Brawl anymore? Brawl is an inferior game to Project M. I believe this is also why Balanced Brawl seems to have become completely irrelevant (although as someone who -has- put a lot of work into being good at Brawl, I myself appreciate it).

I hope this post has been helpful, I eagerly await your feedback.

[Velen]

-and there's that tone and attitude again that grinds my nerves in the edit to your article before it was edited with a more neutral tone.

I know the PMBR Team doesn't need to be making this for the public, but for someone to go as far as to use the phrase "isn't privileged with" in the same sentence as "the public", making it seem like it's some gift from god. I dunno about you all but that points to someone who treats what he's doing with an attitude of hubris in my book.

[LC-DDM]

Modding Brawl seems pointless?

Oh okay so we're just going to pretend Brawl hacking didn't come from Brawl and it came from P:M instead.

There's a difference between Brawl hacking and P:M hacking. Brawl hacking is open-range, you can do whatever the hell you want and literally anyone can download it if they choose so, regardless if the quality is good (properly rigged model imports) or not (every Sonic OC ever), and there is little restrictions (bar actual game programming) on what you can do. P:M has everything run through a fine, thin comb several times when something is changed, because in a sense there is a lot of work going into one mod that does the most radical of changes. As such, there's a standard of quality. I'm not going to pretend I like the project but one does have to admit that this is as close as it'll get to some in regards of developing a game due to the sheer amount of effort for each and every single aspect of P:M, even if it's just taking the foundations of a house and adding a basement to it.

I also like how you said Project M is "better" than Brawl. Why? Because it's an Ascended Clone of Melee? If Smash 4, 5, 6, 3DS get the ability to be modded, are we going to have P:M for those too? The thing is people deem Melee to be the holy grail of Smash, which, even if it is their right, they're also declining any possible chance of a future installment being better simply because it's not Melee.

Also people make mods for Brawl because without mods for Brawl you can't have mods for P:M. Also way to go on insulting a whole community while pandering to just one demographic (not a small one, clearly, but still). And wasn't BBrawl just Brawl tournified without bringing major changes anyway?

With that said, I still don't see the point of not letting P:M movesets not play in vB.

[libertyernie]

I thought for a while about whether I should release a P:M version of the Classic Expansion Pack. I eventually decided to do it because I was only editing stages, not characters, and I figured adding these stages might get a few more people to try P:M.

After all, the characters are what make P:M what it is, whereas some of the stages in P:M (especially the non-tourney-legal ones - Flat Zone 2 anyone?) are still Brawl holdovers. Since those stages were still on the SSS and not removed like the unfinished characters, I figured the PMBR wasn't as protective about the stage selection.

Also, I've gotten used to having stage expansion available - it helps me avoid making decisions about which stages to keep!

P.S. Another minor motivation was putting Yoshi's Island (Melee) back into the game. I have fond memories of playing Melee on that stage with max items.

[ESPeR]

Modding Brawl seems pointless?

Oh okay so we're just going to pretend Brawl hacking didn't come from Brawl and it came from P:M instead.

There's a difference between Brawl hacking and P:M hacking. Brawl hacking is open-range, you can do whatever the hell you want and literally anyone can download it if they choose so, regardless if the quality is good (properly rigged model imports) or not (every Sonic OC ever), and there is little restrictions (bar actual game programming) on what you can do. P:M has everything run through a fine, thin comb several times when something is changed, because in a sense there is a lot of work going into one mod that does the most radical of changes. As such, there's a standard of quality. I'm not going to pretend I like the project but one does have to admit that this is as close as it'll get to some in regards of developing a game due to the sheer amount of effort for each and every single aspect of P:M, even if it's just taking the foundations of a house and adding a basement to it.

I also like how you said Project M is "better" than Brawl. Why? Because it's an Ascended Clone of Melee? If Smash 4, 5, 6, 3DS get the ability to be modded, are we going to have P:M for those too? The thing is people deem Melee to be the holy grail of Smash, which, even if it is their right, they're also declining any possible chance of a future installment being better simply because it's not Melee.

Also people make mods for Brawl because without mods for Brawl you can't have mods for P:M. Also way to go on insulting a whole community while pandering to just one demographic (not a small one, clearly, but still). And wasn't BBrawl just Brawl tournified without bringing major changes anyway?

With that said, I still don't see the point of not letting P:M movesets not play in vB.

I never meant to imply that Brawl modding wasn't what lead to Project M, I think claiming that would be asinine. I am trying to say that I think modding for Brawl instead of Project M now that Project M is out seems more often than not, pointless. Project M can be just as free range and the deeper engine allows for more possibilities with PSA's. The engine allows you to exploit Melee tech skill in whole new ways when programming moves. No matter what, Project M has more gameplay options than Brawl. It's the same mods with everything the engine adds on top of that. Because of this, I think Project M mods are inevitable, a phenomena represented by the ever increasing amount of mods to Project M content. Many seasoned veterans of the community have moved onto making there mods based off of Project M as a source, and the demand for these mods is clearly there and is clearly increasing.

Anyways, Project M is a better game because it's more balanced, features stage striking, removes the input lag programmed into Brawl by default, features less stages considered annoying by what seems to be the majority of Smash players, pro or casual, includes fan favorite stages removed in Brawl, features better team textures, can be patched by the PMBR when there are glitches or balance issues, removes illogical and disappointing textures in favor of fan favorite character designs, removes stuff put in the game for blatant advertising like Wario's Warioware inspired moveset, features more tech skill which means deeper gameplay, removes obviously broken elements of Brawl like characters with way to much recovery like Snake, Pokemon weaknesses, automatic Pokemon switches, Pokemon not having Down-B's, Pokemon slowly growing fatigued which forces you to switch to a character with a potentially unfavorable match up, random tripping, includes the option for two players to have different amounts of stock, includes Input Assistance which helps players get better which improves the overall gameplay of the community and thus allows a deeper gaming experience, allows infinite replays, allows infinite camera, changes stage collision to better take advantage of the wall jumping mechanic. Fixes unfavorable or broken stage elements by adding, changing, and removing certain ledges and collisions, allows a higher amount of viable stages (viable being defined as not overwhelmingly unplayable to certain characters or in certain match ups, and makes stages less random which is important for characters that have less defensive options, besides making the stage more viable for a game that people put thousands on the line for). Do I need to go on?

Brawl is fine, I like Brawl, I have probably played Brawl more than any other game. It is this love for Brawl that has allowed me to over time become educated about its flaws. Project M is built better, period. That has nothing to do with it being a Melee clone, it has to do with them trying to make the most appealing smash game possible and making a mark on all demographics of players. It applies game theory way better than Brawl does. Sakurai even admitted many of the mistakes he made in Brawl, mistakes Project M fixes, mistakes Sakurai said he would not make in Smash 4.

Balanced Brawl is a game that made Brawl more balanced without making many more changes. However, it did NOT gain the same notoriety that Project M did because it wasn't built as well from a professional standpoint. Brawl is popular, Brawl mods are popular. If Balanced Brawl was better or at least comparable to Project M, it would be popular. It is not popular. It's considered obsolete by most informed members of the community. Many non tech-skilled players I know still prefer Project M to Brawl. They play it like Brawl, but enjoy changes such as ones made to the Pokemon, and easter eggs, and stages, and to the characters in general. They also enjoy the more balanced gameplay. It is pretty much the most balanced Brawl mod, and what isn't balanced right now will be fixed by the constantly active and at work PMBR. They have gone above and beyond what any mod has ever done for a game. It is probably the most extensive mod in gaming history, if not, close to it, and incredibly useful.

I thought for a while about whether I should release a P:M version of the Classic Expansion Pack. I eventually decided to do it because I was only editing stages, not characters, and I figured adding these stages might get a few more people to try P:M.

After all, the characters are what make P:M what it is, whereas some of the stages in P:M (especially the non-tourney-legal ones - Flat Zone 2 anyone?) are still Brawl holdovers. Since those stages were still on the SSS and not removed like the unfinished characters, I figured the PMBR wasn't as protective about the stage selection.

Also, I've gotten used to having stage expansion available - it helps me avoid making decisions about which stages to keep!

P.S. Another minor motivation was putting Yoshi's Island (Melee) back into the game. I have fond memories of playing Melee on that stage with max items.

I am glad you posted this, it says a lot. I just don't think the line between respecting Project M and expressing your digital media rights is as clear as some make it out to be. We should be allowed to experiment if we are respectful in the process, and people know to make it very clear that the game has been altered like you did. You justified what you did, and I think as long as you can justify it as well as you did, in other words, as long as you are sure it is for the greater good of enjoying Smash, I see nothing wrong with modding Project M, even characters. I know the internet is a ravenous, all consuming machine that is very hard to control, but what the PMBR has done very well, regardless of the implications of the tone I speculate some of its members or supporters may have taken on, is let people know that  they want there reputation preserved. They should continue to do be effective at letting people know that the distinction between our mods and theirs should be made very clear, but I think there are other ways to go about it that don't imply untrue things about what data is ours and what data is theirs by using terms like "privileged" and "unauthorized". However, I do not want anyone to think I am putting all of this effort into a simple issue of semantics. I think that there attitude effects the greater good of Smash Bros modding negatively.

My intention is less to call anyone out and more to reach a common understanding. I am glad so many prevalent members of the PMBR and the Smash modding community have read what I have to say. I feel like by discussing this I could learn a lot by hearing what the PMBR thinks about my opinion.

[Velen]

Here's the thing for me ESPeR.

Though Project M is a better built game, and I enjoy it. The majority of it's changes come from Melee, and as of yet, as far as I have played with 2.5, Melee things are the only big changes to the game itself at all. If you don't count the characters. A few of the characters have me worried of the direction Project M will go in.

It's namely the Top Tiers from Melee, as it stands. They are just as they were in Melee, pretty much. As nice as it might be for this to be so. That's not what I wanted (I'm using myself as an example here, I do not speak for everyone and will never claim to do so) to see with them.

What I was hoping for is new mechanics to be introduced to the Top Tiers and the Veterans. Lucario for example, although not a veteran, got a complete revamp, he kept some of his old tricks and got quite a few new ones to go along with it. Then you have veterans like Bowser, who by comparison didn't really gain much except his Super Armor and the Koopa Klaw.

For example: Falco state's he prefer's the air, why not make changes to his moveset to reflect that? Give him a fantastic air game and a mediocre ground game. Then have Fox be an average between Falco and Wolf, who could have a fantastic ground game and a mediocre air game? Nuances like that can define a character, and can also make them great in their own right.

Right now, Falco -from my experience- is a very much ground-oriented character, and Melee's engine makes this even more so because of his fast fall speed. The only thing that would supplement his air game right now is his fantastic initial jump height.

The PMBR Team won't do something like this however, for maybe one of several or a combination of reasons: They deem such things to not be competitive,  it doesn't fit in with Project M's mission, or they would probably end up sending the Melee veterans into a pissfest if they changed one of their precious characters in such a way. Problem is that right now, Falco and Fox are clones as they were before and have been. Diversifying them would be a great thing in my view, however.

Wolf in fact is the most diverse of the Space Animals in Project M at the moment. He has a set of moves that resemble Fox and Falco's, but they are utterly diverse by comparison to the aforementioned Star Fox team members. To top it all off, Falco copying Fox in almost every respect isn't his style character-wise anyway. He'd rather do things his way. Thus why I think there is a need to diversify the two. Making him as diverse from Fox as Wolf is to both of them.

For other characters like Luigi, being a semi-clone of Mario is alright because of their relationship as brothers in game canon. The Space Animals have no such connection, and I find the fact that Fox and Falco are on the same team to be a poor excuse for making him a nigh-perfect clone of Fox.

That's how I think it should be: a game where no character is a complete clone of another, and where the majority are diversified beyond mere nuances. Which is what Falco is: the only reason he's not a true clone of Fox is because of nuances and nothing more, but even those are not enough to make him diverse from Fox.

[LC-DDM]

I never meant to imply that Brawl modding wasn't what lead to Project M, I think claiming that would be asinine. I am trying to say that I think modding for Brawl instead of Project M now that Project M is out seems more often than not, pointless.

Except not really, that's just bull[censored] you're claiming. Right now it's the exact opposite, and it's because of the P:M team being so determined to finetune -everything-, it won't be at a "final" release any time soon. And we both know the "final" release won't ever come because there'll always be a thing or two that isn't filed down so it doesn't look jagged like the rest. Face it, at most what P:M gets in terms of modding is one or two new FD recolors.

Project M can be just as free range and the deeper engine allows for more possibilities with PSA's. The engine allows you to exploit Melee tech skill in whole new ways when programming moves. No matter what, Project M has more gameplay options than Brawl. It's the same mods with everything the engine adds on top of that. Because of this, I think Project M mods are inevitable, a phenomena represented by the ever increasing amount of mods to Project M content. Many seasoned veterans of the community have moved onto making there mods based off of Project M as a source, and the demand for these mods is clearly there and is clearly increasing.

Nnnnnnnnot really. P:M is pretty closed source and they're not just going to let it be modded all willy-nilly. Also how can P:M have more gameplay options than Brawl? It has literally the same menus. The only thing I can see that would count is Stage Strike and Specific Stock, maybe the buffer stuff, but overall it's the same bloody thing. It just has that Melee scent.

Anyways, Project M is a better game because it's more balanced, features stage striking, removes the input lag programmed into Brawl by default, features less stages considered annoying by what seems to be the majority of Smash players, pro or casual

Yyyyyyeah balance is all made out to be Melee-like. So Melee toptiers stay tops, bottoms stay bottoms, and everyone else gets a middle ground. Not an accurate description, I'm well aware, but BB did it in a way that doesn't feel tacked-on. Also gettin' reeeeeeeeeal tired of your "pro or casual" [censored]. If you know casuals you'd know they wouldn't care about "annoying stages" and they'd actually like them.

includes fan favorite stages removed in Brawl, features better team textures, can be patched by the PMBR when there are glitches or balance issues, removes illogical and disappointing textures in favor of fan favorite character designs, removes stuff put in the game for blatant advertising like Wario's Warioware inspired moveset, features more tech skill which means deeper gameplay, removes obviously broken elements of Brawl like characters with way to much recovery like Snake, Pokemon weaknesses, automatic Pokemon switches, Pokemon not having Down-B's, Pokemon slowly growing fatigued which forces you to switch to a character with a potentially unfavorable match up, random tripping, includes the option for two players to have different amounts of stock, includes Input Assistance which helps players get better which improves the overall gameplay of the community and thus allows a deeper gaming experience, allows infinite replays, allows infinite camera, changes stage collision to better take advantage of the wall jumping mechanic. Fixes unfavorable or broken stage elements by adding, changing, and removing certain ledges and collisions, allows a higher amount of viable stages (viable being defined as not overwhelmingly unplayable to certain characters or in certain match ups, and makes stages less random which is important for characters that have less defensive options, besides making the stage more viable for a game that people put thousands on the line for). Do I need to go on?

Congrats. With the exception of the red stuff, everything you just said can be done in regular Brawl. What was the point here, again?
Funny thing, the ones in red aren't really that necessary. At most, maybe the Specific Stock because it would be fun, but other than that I really don't see how that makes Brawl any deeper if you're playing with anything that isn't a GameCube controller (which is another different point entirely, because HEY you can't play with the controller you like, but whatever).

Brawl is fine, I like Brawl, I have probably played Brawl more than any other game. It is this love for Brawl that has allowed me to over time become educated about its flaws.

So did you and everyone else.

Project M is built better, period. That has nothing to do with it being a Melee clone, it has to do with them trying to make the most appealing smash game possible and making a mark on all demographics of players. It applies game theory way better than Brawl does. Sakurai even admitted many of the mistakes he made in Brawl, mistakes Project M fixes, mistakes Sakurai said he would not make in Smash 4.

Are you sure it has nothing to do with it being a Melee "clone"? Because really, show me something where at one point people gave Brawl a chance for being a new installment, and I'll show you people that are lying, because Melee is really the only "good" Smash game in their eyes. Also, there's a difference between a hobby mod, even if built better, and a group of people who sacrifice hours upon hours of their lives, sleeping in the office even, and being constantly rushed by fans to release the game. Sakurai damn near killed himself working too hard, and yes, the product wasn't polished, but there is no one to blame but the fans' greed for wanting the game.

Balanced Brawl is a game that made Brawl more balanced without making many more changes. However, it did NOT gain the same notoriety that Project M did because it wasn't built as well from a professional standpoint.

It was Brawl modded to make the game less tier-dependant without making major changes. That was the point of BB.

Brawl is popular, Brawl mods are popular.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

If Balanced Brawl was better or at least comparable to Project M, it would be popular. It is not popular. It's considered obsolete by most informed members of the community.

Well NO [censored] it's obsolete. P:M is there isn't it? If it wasn't and BB would sit a few more years I bet BB would flourish.

Many non tech-skilled players I know still prefer Project M to Brawl. They play it like Brawl, but enjoy changes such as ones made to the Pokemon, and easter eggs, and stages, and to the characters in general. They also enjoy the more balanced gameplay. It is pretty much the most balanced Brawl mod, and what isn't balanced right now will be fixed by the constantly active and at work PMBR.

That's alright I guess, but..

They have gone above and beyond what any mod has ever done for a game. It is probably the most extensive mod in gaming history, if not, close to it, and incredibly useful.

Hm... that's funny, I'm sure some of the Valve games everyone loves started out as their own mods. But hey, you're the apparent "gaming history" expert.

My intention is less to call anyone out and more to reach a common understanding. I am glad so many prevalent members of the PMBR and the Smash modding community have read what I have to say. I feel like by discussing this I could learn a lot by hearing what the PMBR thinks about my opinion.

Overall, it just sounds like you're fangasming/brown-nosing and giving way too much credit over a mod.

And [censored], I think you beat Miacis in the "Lots of Words" category.

[Miacis]

Oh hey, I heard my name. :>
I could probably stay around here and play the debate on the PMBR's weird communication tactics, but for now, I'll just focus on the only specific point in the OP that concerns KCMM:

All the same, I still see mods of Project M content sometime being reported. A .gct that added many other codes from other less balanced/more obsolete projects such as Brawl + and Brawl - seemed to have been reported, and seems to have had its description edited to say not to "massacre" such a great game, but the mod didn't break any of kc-mms rules (and is still there, as such. I want to add that I am sure the purpose of this mod was either for fun, or for experimentation).

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=27497
The edit in its description is just Crashouti, the author, answering to that stupid report (we get those everyday). It wasn't edited by anyone in the Staff here. In other words, the PMBR doesn't seem like it had anything to do with this incident. It's more like we just had an angry fanboy reporting it, and the author (clumsily) answered it in the description.

Only a BV Staff member or an administrator should be able to edit descriptions, and (unless I'm mistaken), we don't have any PMBR members in it. Actually, there's Thany, but it's not like she's very active, or so disrespectful she would do something like that.
Since that would be overstepping the boundaries of our home rules, none of them should have any reason to remove any of those P:M mods, unless other important rules are broken. Our personal philosophy here is more about how everyone should be able to share hacks and mod their Brawl the way they like it.
There are limits of course, mainly regarding theft and plagiarism, but experimentation based on other's work (with proper credits) isn't something which is frowned upon, here.

Heck, there's a reason why full Packs have been forbidden from the Vault for the longest time. The idea has always been that people should be able to individually pick what they like, and not be burdened with downloading a whole freakin' SD card just for a few select hacks.

While there isn't much we can do about people modding Project M, we don't heavily support it since it could lead to situations where the modifications made to the official release could be misinterpreted as being an actual part of Project M, and due to several reasons, we don't want that.
And while we do have a subforum on Smashboards dedicated towards Project M mods, they are mostly aesthetic of nature, which doesn't involve editing the moveset nor the codeset in any (serious) way.

Also, there is a reason why we don't want people to modify the movesets and especially the codeset, and that is because it all simply isn't finished yet.
We don't want unfinished codes roaming the internet for the simple fact that they are just not finished, and neither do we want people to edit the movesets as that firstly could cause the misinterpretation that it might be an actual part of Project M and secondly the fact that they as well aren't finished, and movesets based on Project M will potentially have to be updated again and again with every new update.

Okay, I guess I'll drop a word or two about that whole issue, but here's the thing:

Why are you releasing unfinished movesets/codesets publicly if you fear that your communication skills aren't good enough to stop any potential "fakes"?
If this wasn't a hack and a clear violations of copyright laws, I'd probably suggest to purchase a license that defines how many modifications to the intellectual property are allowed and by who. But you can't do that (since you're technically not respecting intellectual property yourselves), so maybe you should :

1) Crank up on the communication to make sure that people know exactly what is the real Project M, and have a figurehead of sorts be famous enough to release statements whenever a truly threatening ""impostor"" arises.

2) Just don't release things that you don't want people to mod.

Since you guys can't have any control on what we are allowed to do with your stuff, there really aren't any other solutions. However, trying to hold a crusade against people doing things that they have all the right in the world to do certainly isn't going to do your reputation any good.

Like, as an example, I really like the sentence "it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work". It has a certain irony to it, considering that the PMBR is mostly just that: random hackers altering and distributing work made by other hackers from the whole Brawl hacking community.
Trying to be very closed-source when basing your work on very open-source-even-though-it's-illegal material just doesn't sound very right. Especially if the main argument is ... "stability"? If someone mods your engine and it doesn't work properly, then I don't really see how it concerns you guys. It just means he's not a very good hacker and that's it.

---

Also, you guys are getting a lil' bit off-topic. It's supposed to be a discussion about the PMBR, more than the game itself, right? So let's recenter the debate towards that, okay?

[Shadic]

It has a certain irony to it, considering that the PMBR is mostly just that: random hackers altering and distributing work made by other hackers from the whole Brawl hacking community.

The PMBR is big enough these days that we very hardly outsource work anymore. And I can't think of anything in P:M that we haven't spoken with the original creator over. (I spoke with Robzdahero about Dracula's Castle, which iirc is one of our biggest things originally done by somebody outside of the PMBR.)

Yyyyyyeah balance is all made out to be Melee-like. So Melee toptiers stay tops, bottoms stay bottoms, and everyone else gets a middle ground.

Simply untrue. While some people want us to more actively change/buff certain characters, we're hesitant on doing so because we want to see how the metagame advances with them. I think there are plenty of "sleeper" characters that are a lot better than the public gives them credit for. This isn't a rare occurrence in fighting games.


Going back to the main topic, I think the PMBR's stance of modding P:M has been wildly exaggerated and twisted. We're fairly open to modding most parts of Project M - There are numerous unofficial "P:M Ready" characters such as Roy that have been made by (At the time) not PMBR members. There's a large chunk of stages out there "tweaked" for P:M. (A lot of these don't even have stuff like our Camera changes, which are fairly important to the 'feel' of P:M, but we're not cracking down on that.)

People have made mods of the P:M HUD, of the character select screen, and of our stage selection screen. (Although less-so in 2.5 because that one is awesome.) We've allowed or even publicly encouraged all of this.

So with all that said, there's stuff we don't like people touching. Yet. We don't like people trying to make unreleased characters accessible, for fairly obvious reasons. (Why play 2.5b if you can play 2.5b with all unreleased characters?) We don't like people ripping stuff off of P:M without acknowledging it. (We had issues a year or two back with a fairly popular hacker stealing our stuff from an ancient leak, while simultaneously trying to call P:M shoddy. The KC-MM staff were quite supportive of us trying to close that stuff down, and we appreciated it.)

With all that said, it seems like this is turning into a thread of 10,000,000 words about a fairly minor disagreement on us on development. And a disagreement that we've stated numerous times is because we're still WIP. We have plans of making a lot of our behind-the-scenes works available to the public when we've hit "Gold." We've also released a good chunk of codes out to the public. We've added to the documentation of modules, variables, article floating points, etc. And next release, we'll undoubtedly have even more cool stuff to share with the public.

tldr; The PMBR likes to keep its cards close to its chest for hype and surprises for releases. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. It keeps things fun for us, and the information ultimately gets released to the public.

[HaloedHero]

Wait, someone mentioned pm content not working in vBrawl? What exact content are you speaking about? I can't think of anything that we deliberately disabled for use in vBrawl. If something doesn't work, it's because it needs codes that make pm what it is to function, which you wouldn't want in vBrawl.

Basically, if some things don't work in vBrawl, it's not some sinister plot to engineer it that way.

[LC-DDM]

Simply untrue. While some people want us to more actively change/buff certain characters, we're hesitant on doing so because we want to see how the metagame advances with them. I think there are plenty of "sleeper" characters that are a lot better than the public gives them credit for. This isn't a rare occurrence in fighting games.

Except you missed the part I said it wasn't an accurate description, meaning I was aware I could be wrong. And okay, go with "don't change, see how metagame acts". Fine and dandy. But that means that alternate possibilities for a character (Falco being, like Velen said, better on air) won't be tried out at all, will they?

With all that said, it seems like this is turning into a thread of 10,000,000 words about a fairly minor disagreement on us on development. And a disagreement that we've stated numerous times is because we're still WIP. We have plans of making a lot of our behind-the-scenes works available to the public when we've hit "Gold." We've also released a good chunk of codes out to the public. We've added to the documentation of modules, variables, article floating points, etc. And next release, we'll undoubtedly have even more cool stuff to share with the public.

All I want is a PAL release, really. Okay, and PAL versions of some codes that -have- been released, but other than that not much.

Wait, someone mentioned pm content not working in vBrawl? What exact content are you speaking about? I can't think of anything that we deliberately disabled for use in vBrawl. If something doesn't work, it's because it needs codes that make pm what it is to function, which you wouldn't want in vBrawl.

Basically, if some things don't work in vBrawl, it's not some sinister plot to engineer it that way.

I had heard 2.5 movesets don't work in vB. Which sucks ass because that Snake is feels more like something out of Konami than the vanilla, which feels more like something Michael Bay just [censored] out as a "tribute" to Metal Gear.