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If I recall correctly wasn't there a version of Brawlbox that showed the programming of attack animations when you play the animation and what part of the programming it was on during what frame? Which version was that and why was it taken out? I hope my questions make sense.

This has probably already been said, but I don't think it's in a fighting games best interest to change a characters popular play style. Also, Falco has an incredible air game. He does up kills and down kills fantastically and does a lot of jumping in his game play. It's like, he has wings, so he can jump and shoot with more efficiency than Fox or Wolf, and guess what, that's what he does. And again, everyones play style has been tweaked. Ganondorf has quite a bit of new life breathed into him, as does ("Dr.") Mario. I don't really play any of the other Melee greats besides Marth and Falcon, who have at least minor amounts of added flare in Project M *run of ledge, taunt cancel* Show me your moves! --> *dropzone knee* YES!

Shadic, I would agree it was thievery if we weren't talking about a mod that still uses a lot of content from Brawl, including most of the engine. Although, the fact that PM is an unfinished Project and the way it's going so far, I can imagine it'll be mostly original by the time it's done. After all, foreign bootleg merchandise like fake iPhones are basically thieving by using the design of the iPhone, claiming it's theirs, and making profit, so the connotation between modding your content and thievery isn't actually too far off. But isn't that the nature of Brawl mods, and doesn't that in itself change the context?

Or am I misunderstanding, and taking what you said out of context? I feel like I might be.

I would like to add that in programming it is extremely common to take shortcuts by basically not programming what's already been programmed, which is another thing that I think changes the context of what thievery entails with freeware.

LC-DMM: I'm.. not even going to bother going into too much detail. Somebody from the PMBR already said most of what I need to say. The red statements you highlighted are not untrue like you said, and you can figure that out by playing Project M 2.5, or even going on the website and reading the news updates or change list. Melee fans don't like that there are such bad characters in Melee, just like Brawl players don't like how the bottom four characters are literally and statistically broken. Project Ms tournament scene and heck, honestly even the frame data prove that they have succeeded at balancing the broken characters in both Melee and Brawl. Ike is AWFUL in Brawl from a statistical standpoint, determined by match-ups, frame data, and money match statistics. There ARE great Brawl Ike players and they still do best when equally skilled players play similar tier characters, especially Shiek. Anyways, an Ike main got second place at Melee FCs Project M tourney. Many top-tier characters have had chaingrabs removed, such as Ganondorf and Falco.

I've already gone on much longer than I would prefer, I think it's silly you're slinging ad-homonym attacks and aggression in a thread criticizing a group of people of doing the same thing and the negative repercussions of that. Everybody else has been able to talk on a respectable, down to earth level, and show that they are knowledgeable. A lot of the people in this thread helped work on a game that a lot of people play. I'm very happy to be able to communicate with them on this level.

Velen: There are quite a few changes to vets. Falco retains his "spin and spin and spin and spin" attack from Brawl for added spacing options. Mario becomes like a combination of both Mario and Dr. Mario, Dr. Mario being a relevant character in Melee tourneys. Ganondorf retains Flame Choke for tech-chasing. Bowser's design was assisted by Gimpyfish, a well known Bowser player, and now features exploitation of heavy armor.  Uhm, there's more. There's a changelog. Anyways, you raise a good point. Project M will never break -too- far away from Melee. Even when they make changes it's to fit in line with a Melee like play-style. That's why I think more people should take advantage of the engine and make there own games that use it.

Miacis: Thank you! That is really helpful information, and already changes a lot about what I believe. I just assumed somebody from the PMBR worked for KC-MM and made the edit after the report.

Shadic: I guess you're right, to be fair it's not like I see this reported phenomena of anti-modding behavior very often. I just noticed it and really wanted to know what you guys thought. I'm... pretty satisfied with all I've learned in this thread, actually. Thank you, too. I do know that the game is a WIP, but I think as long as people make it clear that there mod is a mod, than some of the things discovered by modders that actually are good could be incorporated somehow. Like a collective effort on the part of the community. But yeah, you gotta put your foot down somewhere. I understand and even respect that, and I have a better opinion of the whole situation now that I've had the chance to learn more. Some Project M players are gonna be very adamant about seeing that the game they love is respected, hype does things to people, and that's alright.

Wait, someone mentioned pm content not working in vBrawl? What exact content are you speaking about? I can't think of anything that we deliberately disabled for use in vBrawl. If something doesn't work, it's because it needs codes that make pm what it is to function, which you wouldn't want in vBrawl.

Basically, if some things don't work in vBrawl, it's not some sinister plot to engineer it that way.

That's interesting, and good to know.

Modding Brawl seems pointless?

Oh okay so we're just going to pretend Brawl hacking didn't come from Brawl and it came from P:M instead.

There's a difference between Brawl hacking and P:M hacking. Brawl hacking is open-range, you can do whatever the hell you want and literally anyone can download it if they choose so, regardless if the quality is good (properly rigged model imports) or not (every Sonic OC ever), and there is little restrictions (bar actual game programming) on what you can do. P:M has everything run through a fine, thin comb several times when something is changed, because in a sense there is a lot of work going into one mod that does the most radical of changes. As such, there's a standard of quality. I'm not going to pretend I like the project but one does have to admit that this is as close as it'll get to some in regards of developing a game due to the sheer amount of effort for each and every single aspect of P:M, even if it's just taking the foundations of a house and adding a basement to it.

I also like how you said Project M is "better" than Brawl. Why? Because it's an Ascended Clone of Melee? If Smash 4, 5, 6, 3DS get the ability to be modded, are we going to have P:M for those too? The thing is people deem Melee to be the holy grail of Smash, which, even if it is their right, they're also declining any possible chance of a future installment being better simply because it's not Melee.

Also people make mods for Brawl because without mods for Brawl you can't have mods for P:M. Also way to go on insulting a whole community while pandering to just one demographic (not a small one, clearly, but still). And wasn't BBrawl just Brawl tournified without bringing major changes anyway?

With that said, I still don't see the point of not letting P:M movesets not play in vB.

I never meant to imply that Brawl modding wasn't what lead to Project M, I think claiming that would be asinine. I am trying to say that I think modding for Brawl instead of Project M now that Project M is out seems more often than not, pointless. Project M can be just as free range and the deeper engine allows for more possibilities with PSA's. The engine allows you to exploit Melee tech skill in whole new ways when programming moves. No matter what, Project M has more gameplay options than Brawl. It's the same mods with everything the engine adds on top of that. Because of this, I think Project M mods are inevitable, a phenomena represented by the ever increasing amount of mods to Project M content. Many seasoned veterans of the community have moved onto making there mods based off of Project M as a source, and the demand for these mods is clearly there and is clearly increasing.

Anyways, Project M is a better game because it's more balanced, features stage striking, removes the input lag programmed into Brawl by default, features less stages considered annoying by what seems to be the majority of Smash players, pro or casual, includes fan favorite stages removed in Brawl, features better team textures, can be patched by the PMBR when there are glitches or balance issues, removes illogical and disappointing textures in favor of fan favorite character designs, removes stuff put in the game for blatant advertising like Wario's Warioware inspired moveset, features more tech skill which means deeper gameplay, removes obviously broken elements of Brawl like characters with way to much recovery like Snake, Pokemon weaknesses, automatic Pokemon switches, Pokemon not having Down-B's, Pokemon slowly growing fatigued which forces you to switch to a character with a potentially unfavorable match up, random tripping, includes the option for two players to have different amounts of stock, includes Input Assistance which helps players get better which improves the overall gameplay of the community and thus allows a deeper gaming experience, allows infinite replays, allows infinite camera, changes stage collision to better take advantage of the wall jumping mechanic. Fixes unfavorable or broken stage elements by adding, changing, and removing certain ledges and collisions, allows a higher amount of viable stages (viable being defined as not overwhelmingly unplayable to certain characters or in certain match ups, and makes stages less random which is important for characters that have less defensive options, besides making the stage more viable for a game that people put thousands on the line for). Do I need to go on?

Brawl is fine, I like Brawl, I have probably played Brawl more than any other game. It is this love for Brawl that has allowed me to over time become educated about its flaws. Project M is built better, period. That has nothing to do with it being a Melee clone, it has to do with them trying to make the most appealing smash game possible and making a mark on all demographics of players. It applies game theory way better than Brawl does. Sakurai even admitted many of the mistakes he made in Brawl, mistakes Project M fixes, mistakes Sakurai said he would not make in Smash 4.

Balanced Brawl is a game that made Brawl more balanced without making many more changes. However, it did NOT gain the same notoriety that Project M did because it wasn't built as well from a professional standpoint. Brawl is popular, Brawl mods are popular. If Balanced Brawl was better or at least comparable to Project M, it would be popular. It is not popular. It's considered obsolete by most informed members of the community. Many non tech-skilled players I know still prefer Project M to Brawl. They play it like Brawl, but enjoy changes such as ones made to the Pokemon, and easter eggs, and stages, and to the characters in general. They also enjoy the more balanced gameplay. It is pretty much the most balanced Brawl mod, and what isn't balanced right now will be fixed by the constantly active and at work PMBR. They have gone above and beyond what any mod has ever done for a game. It is probably the most extensive mod in gaming history, if not, close to it, and incredibly useful.

I thought for a while about whether I should release a P:M version of the Classic Expansion Pack. I eventually decided to do it because I was only editing stages, not characters, and I figured adding these stages might get a few more people to try P:M.

After all, the characters are what make P:M what it is, whereas some of the stages in P:M (especially the non-tourney-legal ones - Flat Zone 2 anyone?) are still Brawl holdovers. Since those stages were still on the SSS and not removed like the unfinished characters, I figured the PMBR wasn't as protective about the stage selection.

Also, I've gotten used to having stage expansion available - it helps me avoid making decisions about which stages to keep!

P.S. Another minor motivation was putting Yoshi's Island (Melee) back into the game. I have fond memories of playing Melee on that stage with max items.

I am glad you posted this, it says a lot. I just don't think the line between respecting Project M and expressing your digital media rights is as clear as some make it out to be. We should be allowed to experiment if we are respectful in the process, and people know to make it very clear that the game has been altered like you did. You justified what you did, and I think as long as you can justify it as well as you did, in other words, as long as you are sure it is for the greater good of enjoying Smash, I see nothing wrong with modding Project M, even characters. I know the internet is a ravenous, all consuming machine that is very hard to control, but what the PMBR has done very well, regardless of the implications of the tone I speculate some of its members or supporters may have taken on, is let people know that  they want there reputation preserved. They should continue to do be effective at letting people know that the distinction between our mods and theirs should be made very clear, but I think there are other ways to go about it that don't imply untrue things about what data is ours and what data is theirs by using terms like "privileged" and "unauthorized". However, I do not want anyone to think I am putting all of this effort into a simple issue of semantics. I think that there attitude effects the greater good of Smash Bros modding negatively.

My intention is less to call anyone out and more to reach a common understanding. I am glad so many prevalent members of the PMBR and the Smash modding community have read what I have to say. I feel like by discussing this I could learn a lot by hearing what the PMBR thinks about my opinion.

I might have the chance next time the event that has been disallowed Brawl mods is on to ask them about the C&D letter in more detail. As disappointing as it was that we couldn't have mods, especially Project M, it sort of made sense to me, as I know Nintendo does have representatives that check out some of the gaming events in Norcal, and that Nintendo has a history of not being fond of Brawl mods. In fact I remember being told multiple Norcal events have been sent C&D letters for having Brawl mods. Also, several years back, Fanimecon had a similar case of being C&D'd by Konami for having a cabinate set up with In The Groove on it. I only bring this up because it seems that high profile events in Norcal seem to get this kind of attention often from gaming companies.

On TV Tropes, months ago last year during the time that Project M 2.1 was the most recent version, I added an entry describing how Project M features the trope known as "The Dev Team Thinks of Everything". It read as such.

* TheDevTeamThinksOfEverything: When you try to use a Wii Remote to play the game, the Wii Remote says "Failure" when you pick a character. This is because of how much the Wii Remote limits your ability to play with tech-skill. Players that use the Wii Remote are generally looked down on. Also, in case you're a Brawl modder yourself and you thought you could get the Brawl versions of the characters that aren't yet available in Project M playable by getting rid of the custom code for the Character Select Screen in the gct file (the file that contains the game engine, among other things), they made it so in Demo 1 it would freeze the game, and in demo 2 it would prevent the character from being able to jump. In Demo 2.1, because these effected the single player game poorly, they now made it so selecting a non Project M character off of an unlocked character select screen would just load Mario instead. In any case, this has made making modifications to Project M a real pain in the ass, but this is apparently because the developers do not want anyone releasing there own unofficial full version, thus ruining Project Ms reputation if a bad choice is made or the mods confuse uneducated players.

Now that I go back and re-read my post I realize I probably could have taken a better tone. For a while I treated Brawl mods like a way of sticking it to Nintendo for making Brawl so.... well. Lets just say modding pointed out a lot of flaws in Brawl, so I kind of automatically took that attitude when I was in the mood to talk about Brawl mods. I mistakenly lumped in Project M this way, forgetting that the PMBR has put a lot of love and care into this game. Project M 2.5 slapped sense into me and I've approached Project M with a very serious tone ever since. With that said, inevitably somebody known on tvtropes as "zoom32" would come to improve my post although it took a tone very similar to the one ds22 used. While I know why you don't want people modding Project M, the fact of the matter is that Project M does not exist for profit. It is not wrong to edit freeware. The nature of the post immediately felt that I made somebody involved with the PMBR almost angry with my entry.

The code of the current demo build is locked so that ''Brawl'' modders outside the [=PMBR=] can't easily cheat and access the unfinished characters the public isn't privileged with; in demo 1, trying to access said characters through modding freezes the game, and since demo 2, trying to access the locked characters results in their not being able to jump, and, to further protect the game, if a modder tries to access the unfinished characters by adding and using a fully-unlocked character select screen, the game simply loads Mario instead. (Compare to CopyProtection.) The ''PMBR'' takes the stability of their work (in relation to the public) ''very'' seriously; it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work.

It sounded like it was coming from the point of view who treats Project M like there is a piece of themselves in it, and he said it so "as a matter of fact"-ly. Searching TVtropes and Google for zoom32 showed that most of his edits had to do with Project M, systematically updating all relevant articles with information about Project M almost immediately as it was available and in some instances even slightly before. Google showed that many of his posts on other forums also show him informing others of Project M or talking about Smash and fighting games. I would like to point out the reason I ever modded Project M in the first place was to see how some of the codes used in the game work and see how much modding is possible. I was curious to see if the dev team truly did "think of everything". As Project M is a Brawl Mod I assumed that the PMBR wouldn't mind the idea of people getting creative and making mods based on there engine, perhaps ones that are well made and create unique, uncharted possibilities for characters to use Melee tech skill in ways older character designs wouldn't make possible. I saw Project M's codeset as something that increases the potential for PSAs. I dreamed of using it far beyond its intended purpose for the purpose of science. I understand now how seriously the PMBR takes Project M's reputations. Project M 2.5 showed me by including so many flavorful. attractive stages by Mewtwo2000, fantastic team color and alternate skills, and so much content packed into each character that they have seen what modders have done and responded to it in an incredibly professional matter by including high quality textures and stages that cater to the wants and desires of typical modders and allows us all to enjoy the fruits of there labor be it in the form of a far from flatly colored Shiny Charizard or the answer of how to leave behind that tired old Final Destination from before BY just playing the standard unmodded Project M.

AAAAAAAANYways, it seems that later on zoom32's post would be edited down to a more neutral tone more appropriate for TVtropes by somebody else. I've watched it go through a few revisions actually. It currently reads.

The Dev Team Thinks of Everything: If a modder tries to access the unfinished characters by adding and using a fully-unlocked character select screen, the game simply loads Mario instead. (Compare to Copy Protection.) The PMBR takes the stability of their work (in relation to the public) very seriously; it doesn't want random hackers altering and distributing its work.

If you are familiar with TVtropes, Copy Protection is an article. So in the above post, that links to a description of what TVtropes defines as Copy Protection by its many definitions, and lists examples. The instance in which Copy Protection was added to the entry is one of the most recent edits.

The mod in question that seems to have had its description edited in addition to being reported is on this page: http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php#Page=2&Type=Misc%Other&Moderated=All&facebook=true

It's called "RSBE01.gct Gecko OS Edited Version for Project M V2.1 [Only] [Homebrew Version] [Fix] by Crashouti", it is still up, as it should be. It is not breaking any kc-mm rules to my knowledge. I personally think that this mod allows lots of possibilities to be explored, these unique expansions being possible due to Project M and how its engine adds so much depth. I believe the main idea behind this mod is to include as many good features throughout the history of Brawl modding as possible. I can see how some people would find that doing so allows for a more rich experience, as personalizing Brawls codes tend to be for often enough. I really hope that neither of these people are with the PMBR because that means that the PMBR is intolerant of other peoples theories as to what makes a good game, and are intolerant of experimentation and people personalizing there games how thy see fit. I just find it immature. Please do not treat this like I am accusing you of presently having an intolerant attitude. I look down on the people that made these immature sounding edits, regardless of there good intentions. I would be disappointing if they are a part of the PMBR because I would expect the creators of such a professional product to act more professional. I would like to add that I am glad members of the PMBR want to take action about this post, it definitely raises my hope that you guys are not like how people like zoom32 make you seem.

Finally, I would like to mention that the reason why I think some people mod Project M is because modding Brawl seems pointless now. Whenever I play Smash, my game of choice is Project M. Even when non tech skilled friends are over at my place, I still load up Project M. It's more balanced, so the spacing and strategies they know that -do- work pay off more often. Everyone has a great time, and it opens up possibilities for more skilled players to teach new players Melee tech skill in a fun and balanced environment loaded with content enjoyable by all demographics. So basically, I conclude Project M is just a better game than Brawl, everyone I know, Pro or Cas, seems to agree. While personal experience does not account for facts, this seems to be the trend whenever I go to other Smash communities as well. I will meet people that prefer classic Melee, and I will meet people who find Brawl more familiar, but nobody I have ever met has denied how impressive Project M is. So why would anyone make mods for Brawl anymore? Brawl is an inferior game to Project M. I believe this is also why Balanced Brawl seems to have become completely irrelevant (although as someone who -has- put a lot of work into being good at Brawl, I myself appreciate it).

I hope this post has been helpful, I eagerly await your feedback.

[I want to know what other modders think of this.]

Project M is a -very- serious and -very- professional mod. With that said, it is an unauthorized modification of a licensed game. Some of the gaming venues I've been to have been sent cease and desist letters from Nintendo for being caught having Brawl mods, unfortunately meaning no Project M would be had at said events. That means that no matter how noble of an effort Project M is, no matter how hard they worked on it, that does not change what Project M is.


Now I know the PMBR goes to great lengths to change the reputation of Brawl mods and also to protect the stability and reputation of Project M. All the same, I still see mods of Project M content sometime being reported. A .gct that added many other codes from other less balanced/more obsolete projects such as Brawl + and Brawl - seemed to have been reported, and seems to have had its description edited to say not to "massacre" such a great game, but the mod didn't break any of kc-mms rules (and is still there, as such. I want to add that I am sure the purpose of this mod was either for fun, or for experimentation). The instant Project M 1.0 came out I started modding it just to see how they got everything to work. I've written about my findings on a wiki article, and have found it modded by someone who according to my research very well might be a part of the PMBR. While they avoided the intellectual offence of removing the information about my finds (which I posted for educational purposes, the pursuit of knowledge), the edit got rid of some of the details that could have been seen as instructional and took on a somewhat antagonistic tone, claiming we should not mod the content we are "privileged" to have. I see what they're trying to do, but I just think it comes off as hypocritical and a little immature.


We should be very thankful that so many people got together and made something like Project M, and we should be respectful of the PMBR. However, if you are respectful of what you are modding, perhaps in a fashion similar to the Classic Stage Expansion 5.2 m mod (adding a disclaimer to the strap screen or something), shouldn't it be okay to edit Project M? The files are made available freely on the internet. When you edit that .gct or .pac file with your own content it becomes your own intellectual property the same way the files from Brawl became there own when they edited them. Aren't they just being like Nintendo at this point?


I am aware that Project M has put boards on there own forum where mods can be submitted, and this does help towards the effort of controlling how many less than professional get out to the public, which can be good, and what this does mean is that they do to a certain extent support modding Project M if it is in a controlled environment, but for those who go elsewhere I really think they are coming off as hypocritical to try and stop people from modding Project M content. The files are freely available, we are entitled to mod them under the same logic that we ALL, including them, are entitled to edit files from Brawl.


The point I am trying to make here is I want to know what other modders think of this.

Thanks. That pretty much sums it up. I'll come back if I have any other questions.

I've looked around, but still don't have a very good grasp of the full extent of what is possible when modding Giga Bowser and Wario. So many unanswered questions, and too few good PSAs to research (though perhaps I am behind the curve, or missed something). I was wondering a few things.

First of all, I know that it is possible to make Warioman, Giga Bowser, and all the Alloys available on the CSS. However, what I do not know is can if Warioman or Giga Bowser reasonably be replaced with, lets say something generic as an example, something like Shadow, or the lost Melee characters? If this is done, what problems does this cause for Wario and Bowsers final smash? Would they turn into those characters, or would something cause problems? Also, it seems modding the Alloys has some limitations, is it a coincidence that so many Alloy PSAs I've played are almost completely unplayable, or can more be done? I've heard that when it comes to model imports it is best for the new model to have more bones that the model it is replacing. Would this cause problems when modding someone like Giga Bowser who I imagine has very many bones?

Thank you for reading.

Thank you, that was very informative.

Why not if people do character slot swaps all the time? In theory, the switch move could even be on a taunt, since taunts and moves seem to work similarly. It's less that I'm trying to argue and more like I'm less experienced and it doesn't make sense to me when people replace characters with other character or brand new characters all the time.

Is it possible for a hack of Pokemon Trainer that sends out Snake, Marth, and Olimar instead of his Pokemon?

When I use Brawl Mods, Ness loses parts of his moves and sometimes freezes the game. His yo-yo goes missing, he loses all his aerials, his PSI-Magnet doesn't make the barrier, PK Thunder doesn't fire a projectile, so he stays his "controlling PK Thunder" pose, PK Fire does nothing but Ness's animation for firing it (no projectile comes out), and in Project M, he loses directional air dodges. What the hell? Is this maybe just my disk or Wii? This happens no matter what .pac I use or if I use none at all, it happens whenever I load Brawl with any codes (a .gct file).