Hey, don't drag the community into this. It's the leadership that's the problem here.
I highly respect you as a Modder, Haloed, and so do I respect Spex130, Nanobuds, KJP, Theytah, and other names from the ex-PMDT that don't come to mind in this situation. You have to understand the decision we reached didn't come from Miacis. We had a thorough discussion (And still are having it), but the way both Miacis and the ex-PMDT (+ Nanobuds' helpfulminions) have "debated" the situation has gone horribly.
I can say that everyone in the staff position is inclined to a decision that benefits the community the most. Yes, even Miacis, despite whatever may seem. Miacis is probably the most community-driven member of the staff.
This is a fact. Miacis and the PMDT have had their past, but that was in the past. This decision was reached by all the Brawl Vault Staff, not Miacis alone. And Miacis didn't make it public until we made sure we were all on the same page. Miacis and myself were just 2 more votes added to those of the Vault Staff. Now, you know who are some of the Vault Staff members? People like KingJigglyPuff (ex-PMDT), Theytah (ex-PMDT), Scout (A common browser of SmashBoards), ASF1nk (Known CSS Modder), and Legacy Wolf (Pretty known for his Stages).
Here you are throwing us under the dirt for having a different opinion and brigading us, when we haven't even reached a final decision.
Everything has been said already. Might as well add some more condescension, right? It's what you guys usually spew whenever something related to PM is brought up.
Lets be real, the only reason this is even being debated right now is because we're talking about PM. Had it been an individual user's work getting leaked without their consent, I'm 100% certain you lot wouldn't hesitate to prevent the leaks from being hosted on here. Deny it all you want, but I've lurked this site for quite a while, and that the trend I've always seen.
I don't have to deny anything. I'll just quote myself:
To avoid this, Miacis already stated Large Leader suggested contacting fellow PMDT Team interested in releasing their work in the future and to contact us and we'd extend his deadline to an agreeable lapse of time (Which could be months, so long as it does gets released).
Difference being that this has happened before, and we've removed such WIPs, because you do plan to eventually release your mod (In contrast, we're not sure of who plans on releasing their models on the PMDT).
After speaking with S.J.S. about the situation in a civil manner, I believe I have a better solution to our issue:
Submitting Knuckles, Lyndis or Isaac to the Vault has to be labelled as a "Pack" for all the PM files that would need to be included with them (Codes, cosmetics, etc). We can't allow Knuckles, Lyndis and Isaac because they don't follow this rule for Packs:
Packs must include a README with credit to the submitters of all the included hacks and links to their Brawl Vault galleries (if they have one).
Knowing we can't allow these three, is it fine to allow textures/model edits of these? Sure, they'll have textures ready whenever someone ports them to regular slots (If ever), and they'd fall in the "Custom" category of the Vault. But why allow textures/edits and not the real thing?
I believe the best way to handle Lyndis/Knuckles/Isaac is to allow a thread (Project M Resources Thread) with the 3.61 Download Link, and the thread could be used for people to submit their mods of said PM version, be it textures, models, or whatever they decide. Nothing of this would be allowed on the Vault.
However, sadly, standalone models (Models that don't require files other than the 00.pac/.pcs files, Awakening Roy) would still fall under our rules of free to modify.
Rather than having this discussion in a public forum, is there any way we can have a private discussion between the BV staff and former-PMDT members?
That way, we can have a reasonable discussion to clear up any misunderstandings without the peanut gallery chiming in.
I feel like that would be the best way to get this sorted out in a civil manner and reach a compromise where both parties are happy.
It would have been the best. But now we are in this situation thanks to your ex-fellow PMDT member Nanobuds. I don't really expect Miacis to be open to discussing this further after Nanobuds' approach to the situation.
Oh don't worry it's okay so long as you mention the creator's name even if they didn't give consent and were totally against it—the newly rewritten rules say so!
Rules have not been touched since November 25, 2013. Our decision literally means we're not adjusting the rules to add Project M as an exception to them, not the opposite.
A majority of active modders these days are at SmashBoards, not KCMM. They just use the Vault to upload their work since its the oldest source for mods.
The forums here are like a desert compared to the Custom Content section of SmashBoards. Anyone coming from there has an equally valid opinion to those who stay here at KCMM.
Thank you for clarifying. So you basically brought your followers here to support your decision, labeling us as Sith Lords. I guess I might as well start behaving the way you painted us here, to not to leave a bad impression.
I try to avoid this place for the most part, but I just wanted to chime in and say the mental gymnastics people are doing to justify releasing things that are not theirs is ridiculous.
Maybe if you guys were patient and kind, the PMDT would eventually release their content for us all to enjoy. I can only hope they still decide to do this despite you entitled jerks being, well, entitled jerks. I feel like all of this would be a non-issue if you guys would just wait.
Thanks for your constructive criticism. Definitely the correct way to contribute to the discussion at hand.
Personally I can see the point of the admins to try to make sure that every mod has a place on the site. Perhaps my liberal views make me see the reasoning behind it since it seems like a measure against personal biases factoring in which mod should be allowed on the site and which should not.
It is true that in some cases an effective 'free-for-all' (which is what the status quo of the site seems to be) can be of help, for instance in reviving a forgotten/lost mod that was abandoned by its creator. Someone finds it on a forum and posts it on BV with the creator's name. No harm done and the community gained some content. But in other cases it can demotivate the creators from making anything because, let's say, others might find a leak of their content and publish it before the creator actually finishes it the way he thinks. Arguably, the creator lost his drive for finishing his work and the community gained a semi-finished modification from someone who will probably stop publishing anything else (because let's not forget none is paying him for it).
To avoid this, Miacis already stated Large Leader suggested contacting fellow PMDT Team interested in releasing their work in the future and to contact us and we'd extend his deadline to an agreeable lapse of time (Which could be months, so long as it does gets released).
Do note that we're not allowing people to submit the Project M 3.61 Pack.zip; We're only allowing people to submit use-able character models/texture recolors/edits to the PM leaked models/among other things, not a full pack.
Disallowing submissions of PM 3.61 models (Like Awakening Roy(?)) would mean disallowing texture recolors/model edits of such models, and I'm not fine with this.
What the [censored], seriously? You're really encouraging to beat people up? Do you realize how [censored]ed up that is? The Ex-PMDT worked hard on the work they made, and you're encouraging violence? Are you just jealous by the fact Project M is a quality mod and had a quality team, and you didn't get a chance to get on?
From an artist's point of view, it'd be a huge hit to my pride when people from the very community I create for release an unfinished work of mine before I officially release it, myself. I spend a lot of time on what I do, and there are only a few I trust to handle my work before its complete release. Having a wip released would make it seem like my standards had dropped when I really wanted to work on the piece for a bit longer. As much as this place is a resource for creators, the advanced creators put so much time into attaining the skills they have, and I think kcmm should respect the creator's property when all they ask is for their work to be taken down.
Difference being that this has happened before, and we've removed such WIPs, because you do plan to eventually release your mod (In contrast, we're not sure of who plans on releasing their models on the PMDT).
I'm not fine with forbidding people from submitting their edits/texture recolors/edited models based on 3.61 files on the Vault.
I mean, it's even in the rules: "Minor edits to others' work are allowed to an extent. For example, if you create a night/rain/snow version of someone’s stage or change a character’s shirt from green to blue and want to post it on the Vault, you have to collaborate the creator of the original hack." Except in this case all the individual members who are being collabed for the edit literally don't want it on the vault. This applies to every hack, not just PM stuff.
Our rules don't forbid others to upload their hacks for them, though. They do forbid plagiarizing another person's work, but if the person states who is the owner of the hack and his part in it, he should have no problem uploading a mod that isn't on the Vault. Which is why dasdonkey's textures (Among others') are on the Vault through different users' submissions.
You're telling me you'd have to let it get uploaded to the vault before it can get removed because you're making an exception in the rules for SPECIFICALLY PM stolen content?
On the contrary:
Quote
If P:M content is treated like any BV submission, then all you'd need to do in case of a complaint is to redirect the author to the submitter so they can work this out together. And if the submitter doesn't want to remove the submission, well, tough luck. The files are publicly available regardless.
What does this mean? (And I ask you to read this without any sarcasm, I truly don't understand.)
When did the Vault only become a "resource for Brawl Modding?" Two, what makes the uploader's opinion more important than the creator's?
It doesn't hurt them, but it hurts me, specifically. I'm not as dramatic as Halo, so I'm not gonna storm out the door. But this hurts.
I'm not even mad, just incredibly disappointed. These past few months have been nothing but disappointment.
How would you not know what this means? Many PMDT members have labelled the Vault as a "great resource", and I agree. And the uploader's opinion is irrelevant. We just believe every mod has a place in the Vault (From a Jesus/Judas mod to PM).
As someone said in our discussion:
Quote
The whole point is that we can't really permit re-uploads without allowing edits, or edits without allowing re-uploads. The former because it'd be nonsensical and contrary to the entire point of this modding community. The latter because of the potential for abuse.
Also because it would be rather silly. Like yes, you can download Pink Knuckles or Lyn with the Sol Katti, but not the original Knuckles/Lyn?
You guys seem to forget that the Vault consists of Resources for Brawl Modding. Whoever uploads the leaked files would gain nothing for submitting them to the Vault. Based on this, I honestly don't see the harm.
Do you think maybe we could move these posts to a new topic in the "Serious Discussions/Debates" board, since that's what this heated argument is getting into? O_O
Pass this point, I will not allow more posts that could be resumed in "Let PM die" ([censored]ing in general). There's already several pages of this and Miacis already voiced what he is allowed to do.
Slight change of subject: Whenever I add multiple collaborators to a submission, the order of them becomes very different after submitting. This is a minor issue but I thought I'd report it.
Also, I have an idea that will clear clutter from the Vault. Could all submissions that still have a pending tag after one month be moved to a new "Broken" section and out of the appropriate character's BV section? This process could be automated. Blockers for removing the pending tag would include broken links, (possibly no images), or game crashes. Automated messages about the move to the "Broken" section could be sent 1 week, 2 days, and 1 day before the move. This allows the submitter ample time to correct their issues and the hack will still be accessible but not in a way that annoys users. If the submission is rectified after it has been moved, a BV staff member could manually move it to the appropriate section in BV.
Additionally, the pending tag could be reapplied to broken downloads in the future by BV staff and they will go through the same month long period before being moved. It would also be a good idea to apply the pending tag to current broken downloads if this system is implemented.
I realize that this would require a lot of coding to accomplish and probably won't be immediately feasible, but I still wanted to voice my opinions.
Mods are "Pending" for 2 reasons:
1) They are faulty, yes.
2) Vault Staff has taken their time to approve them.
Right now, there's only 7 mods sitting in "Pending", and all of them date from now to 20 days ago. I believe the number isn't cluttering the Vault. In the end, you're free to browse the Vault without having to see the "Pending" Mods. If we go with your suggestion, there'd probably be a few Mods that would be unjustly removed if 2) happens, which is why I don't think it's benefitial to add an automated process to this situation.
I have an idea: If you guys approve me to be a BV Staff member, and then tell me how to judge if a hack is worth approval, then I can approve or unapprove the hacks, since I'm on here daily, which would mean not long for any hacks at all to be pending.
Mods sitting in "Pending" at this exact moment are breaking the rules. Before deletion, the submitters are given a good amount of time to fix the issue. We are in no need for more Vault Staff, regardless of them being able to check daily or not.
TL;DR: Pending leads to deletion after a moderate amount of time from being reported. The Staff is keeping eyes on these Pending mods.
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