Leoct8's PSA place- Main attraction: Lloyd Irving 7.5

[Leoct8]

Hi everyone, thanks for stopping by my PSA thread. With the release of my update on the Lloyd project, I decided to make a convenient place for people to give feedback on it. This thread will also show progress on some other projects I'm working on.

Projects:

Lloyd Irving 7.5 (Released)

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PSA Changes from 7.3 (Secondary goal of 7.5)

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Last note on Lloyd, it's sort of difficult to take pictures of the absence of glitches, so if anyone has the equipment and is willing to make a video showcasing Lloyd 7.5, I would greatly appreciate it.

Any feedback on the moveset is welcome!

Psychokinetic Asthmatic - Over Ness (In progress)

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Mysterious mystery PSA of mystery

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[Zikkh]

I'll make sure to give your Lloyd update a try sometime and provide some feedback if needed. Less glitches and better balance? I'm all for it.

[Leoct8]

Right on! I'll be happy to hear whatever you have to say  :D

[red9rd]

Have you thought of making a Project M version of Lloyd?

[Leoct8]

I originally intended to release a Project M version with the pack I just put out. However, something about Project M's coding must disagree with Lloyd. During my PSAing process, I made a Lloyd (otherwise identical to a test version right before the release, but) with Project M-like attributes, but when loaded into the game, he had a bunch of glitches out of nowhere, including some of the same glitches I had so painstakingly fixed in 7.5, as well as a couple new ones.

If you were to load 7.5 into Project M, you would notice the following errors

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Honestly, it would probably be an easier glitch-fixing project than going 7.3 to 7.5, but it would also require me to become much more familiar with Project M's mechanics. And after all the time I spent refining 7.5, I don't have the energy to fix a Project M version at the moment.
Not saying I won't ever, but don't hold your breath.

[secretchaos1]

I'd say it's something to do with PM's changes to wolf in code or something that interfere with Lloyd.
Either way I'm going to be testing him out on BrawlEx when I have the chance.

[Leoct8]

I'd say it's something to do with PM's changes to wolf in code or something that interfere with Lloyd.

That makes sense. And if I had to guess, the Project M team will Melee-ize the entire Brawl roster and restore the last of the Fallen Five before they even consider adding in other characters.

Either way I'm going to be testing him out on BrawlEx when I have the chance.

Let me know what you think! If you're using the BrawlEx SFX version, please be sure you have the updated moveset file. ShadowRockShoota fixed it so it works with the Lloyd SFX over Raquaza hack.

[Nebulon]

So I've never played Tales of Symphonia, I have played Abyss,  but not Symphonia. That being said, you've made me interested with this moveset.

I actually really enjoy it.

The rapid fire N B is good since there's a cap. But it's hard to fire off in rapid succession since there seems to be a timing aspect. Since Brawl is fast paced I feel it should be easier to do the 3 shot combo.

The Down B is great. Definitely a clear reward for executing it close enough with the initial stun and the pay off with the high knockback hit.

The Side B is underwhelming. I know how it works, but it's just a bit... strange?

The Up B is fine too. Feels weird since it brings you forward when grounded... but upwards when airborne. Moves that are different while in the air are still typically sending someone the same direction.

A lot of moves seem to go into others. This is good. However, the dominant strategy is to just use the Down B after them, as opposed to the Side B which is what it feels it is meant to be used for. This makes the Side B a bit worthless... unless the down B is out of range... but since the combos are so quick, it's tough to gauge when to use what... this makes me less confident while using him.

As a purist, my biggest issue is the lack of grabs.

The rest of the attacks feel good and have a place :)

It's essential that you give this grabs, in my opinion. And maybe... make the special moves "feel" a bit better in terms of mapping and purpose.

[Leoct8]

I'm glad you enjoyed my update Nebulon!  :D

So I've never played Tales of Symphonia, I have played Abyss,  but not Symphonia. That being said, you've made me interested with this moveset.

I highly recommend you play Tales of Symphonia, it's my favorite game of the Tales series- in fact, they recently came out with an HD remastered version on PS3.

The rapid fire N B is good since there's a cap. But it's hard to fire off in rapid succession since there seems to be a timing aspect. Since Brawl is fast paced I feel it should be easier to do the 3 shot combo.

I didn't edit the N B's timing from Lloyd 7.3, but I may look into it now. In this version, the easiest way to launch all three projectiles is to tap B once, then hold it (tap, hold).

The Side B is underwhelming. I know how it works, but it's just a bit... strange?

I mostly agree with you on the Side B. The development team on early versions of Lloyd wanted it to be like a fourth jab, and as such, made it pretty weak. In trying to make it more usable, I added quite a bit of shield damage and a sweetspot at the tip of Lloyd's sword that has pretty significant knockback growth. One aspect of this move that's easy to miss is if you use Demon Fang (N B), then Sonic Thrust (Side B), it's significantly faster- and often connects with the launching hitbox.  

UpB... Feels weird since it brings you forward when grounded... but upwards when airborne. Moves that are different while in the air are still typically sending someone the same direction.

Fair point. It is a bit unorthodox for a move to have completely different uses on the ground and in the air: comboing/approaching and recovering, respectively. But since Lloyd needs both of those, I'm not sure there's any way to reconcile the two versions of the move.

the dominant strategy is to just use the Down B

True, Down B is Lloyd's primary way to get a KO before 200%, but because of this, I don't want to nerf it. I totally understand your point about the Side B being overshadowed/devalued because by this, but this time, I decided to err on having too few easy KO moves rather than too many. I suppose I'll have to get more playtesters' opinions on balancing before any future releases I do.

As a purist, my biggest issue is the lack of grabs.

I agree that a Brawl character needs grabs. (Quick story time) I recall lurking on an earlier Lloyd team's progress thread a long while ago, and there was one point where they declared that their Lloyd-s would not have grabs. After becoming acquainted with the peculiar behavior of the Lloyd model this moveset uses, I understand why they made that decision. However, this project has helped me develop a wealth of "creative" glitch-fixing techniques, so it's very likely I will give grabs a shot in the future.

Thank you for the great feedback!  :D

[tempesttime]

Fantastic work on this so far. He DOES feel much more playable, when compared to way back when. I want to see our mod become one of the top downloaded mods (community spotlight?)

It's humbling to also see that you appreciate the moveset I wrote for him. Perhaps we should make the Midair Down, have a meteor effect? Make it a much more vertical beast, and a combo finisher?

Also, I would suggest we bring the PM idea up with the PM team. I'm sure they would be interested.

[Leoct8]

I too, would love to see Lloyd become an iconic Brawl hack!
I like the idea of D-air being stronger (I'm a Tales fan, so I want to see Lloyd dominate everybody), but I'm not sure if we could make it feel like Beast while still being both viable and balanced. Considering that, the idea seems sort of Brawl Minus-y to me; and a Brawl Minus "balanced" Lloyd could be a lot of fun.

I don't have any objections to doing a PM balanced Lloyd, I just need to know specifically how their coding interacts with Lloyd's coding. The last time I went at it with my usual methods, the results were frustrating and underwhelming.

[secretchaos1]

Finally got the chance to play around with him a bit.

Some of his animations seem a bit awkward, example his ledge attack clips through the ground, recoveries seem to happen in slow motion, little strange bits like that. Also his item throw animation seems pretty lackluster as well, if it's possible to add some oomf to that it would be a definite plus.

I feel Sonic Thrust needs some horizontal movement in there, like how it is in the Tales games. Just to push him forward a bit instead of leaving him in place.

Also I find sometimes his basic attack combo leaves him vulnerable during the end of it for what feels like a bit too long of a pause, that feeling of him being stuck there is just kind of awkward.

And of course the lack of a throw makes it inconvenient when I try to quickly grab someone and end up taunting instead, would be good to try and fix that up if possible.
In terms of the talk I saw about his up B, perhaps it would work better as Rising Falcon, doing the actual rising part of it before coming down in order to make it a good recovery move, then Tempest could be changed to his aerial side b. The forward momentum of it would make more sense to the player that way if Sonic thrust is also given a bit of momentum, and then it would be less confusing to have the same attack going in two different directions. But that's just an idea.

Some BrawlEx issues

When Wolf's sfx are in play, wolf's crowd cheer plays when Lloyd takes damage. Gets especially annoying when being hit by the super scope.

Would be cool if a BrawlEx version with ported graphics could happen too, I tried to do them myself but I can't seem to get his swords to appear.

Anyway, regardless of all the critical analysis there, he's definitely much more playable than previous versions, and is headed in a real good direction. I might hold off a bit more til he's cleaned up a bit, but I definitely like the direction this is headed in. Awesome work!

[Leoct8]

Thanks for the feedback, secretchaos1!
A lot of Lloyd's animations will be revamped in the next version, so you don't need to worry about that.

I love your suggestion for Sonic Thrust! I think that's exactly what it needs to be much more useful!

I agree with you on the standard combo, so that'll be reworked.

Previous Lloyd teams had problems with this model and throws, but I'll give it a shot nonetheless!

I've probably been too close to this project for too long to be thrown off by how Tempest/Omega Tempest works on the ground and how Psi Tempest works in the air, but I may look into changing it since it seems to bother a lot of people.

Are you using the FitLloyd No SFX pac? I made that version basically because of the issue you're having.

I could try to port the BrawlEx GFX, but, at the moment, my expertise is pretty much limited editing movesets themselves.

Again, I really appreciate your comments. 7.5 was my big playability update, and after a while, you'll see a polished Lloyd that'll really knock your socks off!

[secretchaos1]

Sounds good! Honestly the psy tempest doesn't really bother me so much as rising falcon not rising I think.

No SFX might work better, but I was using the BrawlEx version with sfx on rayquaza iirc. But yeah, I'm glad to hear about the standard combo and sonic thrust getting updated. I'll be keeping an eye out for the next version!