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« Reply #1935 on: July 08, 2014, 05:04:59 PM » |
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You know. A question has been on my mind. How do you guys have a clone engine better than Phantom Wings', who is one of the greatest coders of our time?
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« Reply #1936 on: July 08, 2014, 05:13:05 PM » |
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You know. A question has been on my mind. How do you guys have a clone engine better than Phantom Wings', who is one of the greatest coders of our time?
We have Dantarion, ds22 and even wiiztec now, who are also excellent coders. Phantom Wings was just one of the founding fathers of Brawl Modding. Didn't you just say that you can't release the CE because it super-complicated and long to set up? .-.
If what is taking time is actually animating and balancing, then I don't see what the big deal is. Anyone can do that without needing to tune everything to PGM Melee standards.
I had gathered as much, but that does not adress what I was talking about. At all.
All I'm asking is whether an investment on perfecting BrawlEx on the long-term wouldn't end up faster, better, AND safer, for the reasons explained further above.
If they make a better BrawlEx, then for us it would be the same as the Project M clone engine. The PM clone engine is perfect for what PM wants and needs. Why waste their time working on something that they already have? If they don't want to make a user friendly version of their code, they don't have too. Its their choice. |
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:14:05 PM by Nαno »
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« Reply #1937 on: July 08, 2014, 05:18:53 PM » |
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As of now, the "1 action" in this situation is not as stable as the "3 action". That by itself is a red flag. When the "1 action" becomes stable enough to be a fair comparison, we would take a more serious consideration.
Also most of the CE related work comes from animating and balancing actually. Mewtwo, for example, took months to animate and to look good, and this was before we had the Maya method. Even with the Maya method and touch, it still takes a long time to get it balanced and animated to a level that's up to our standards. This is on top of dealing with other things both PM related and when real life comes into play.
The problem here is you're assuming I'm talking about (or so it sounds to me) Using BrawlEX vs your Clone Engine. I'm not. I'm talking about Project M's Clone Engine and that alone. The fact the Clone Engine is so cumbersome to edit is a problem, and means the coding needs to be optimized if it hasn't been to the fullest already, and if it has, it needs to be made simpler. To me the fact you're all so willing to anchor down your progress with such cumbersome code is pure nonsense. |
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:20:36 PM by Velen »
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« Reply #1938 on: July 08, 2014, 05:27:31 PM » |
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If they make a better BrawlEx, then for us it would be the same as the Project M clone engine. The PM clone engine is perfect for what PM wants and needs. Why waste their time working on something that they already have? Because after some tweaking, it would end up faster (to set up), safer (for the project) and better (being more tightly programmed, so more stable). And in the long run, that could be profitable? I don't think we're communicating properly right now. I'm not saying BrawlEx is better today. Right now, both system have their flaws and advantages. But to me, it seems the flaws of BrawlEx are easier to fix than the CE ones. |
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:29:32 PM by Miacis »
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Round and round the signature goes ~ ~ where it stops, nobody knows. |
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« Reply #1939 on: July 08, 2014, 06:33:10 PM » |
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Well, putting rising hostilities and arguments aside for a sec and moving to your point, Velen, here's my personal opinion.
Don't forget that the PMBR and such is a large group of specialists. They do the parts that they do best, and leave the things they aren't good at to everyone else, right? Yeah, there's more than 2 people at least capable of editing the engine. But also remember that not everyone wants to focus on that. The people capable of editing the engine are the people who want to be capable of editing the engine.
PW's engine is optimized to be user friendly simply because of the way it would be used, you know? Not everyone is as technical as PW, so he specifically set it up so that folks who wanted to put the work in could learn it by themselves. It's a tool set up so that people can take it and create their own result. A module meant to be loaded into a larger result with its potential stretched out per user.
Now, with that, remember that the PM Clone Engine is aiming for a different result. They don't care so much about the process so much as the result, right? This isn't an Engine where they don't know how far it will stretch. This also isn't an Engine which is going to be handled by hands who don't know how it works. This isn't a module, it's a backbone. It's eventually going to harden into a solid state where there won't be any edits from the PMBR side. And at that point, it will be most stable because it's built to work into the system around it.
Sure, I guess it'd be possible to sit the entire back room down and teach them the clone engine. It's not an impossible feat, the PMBR is collectively very smart. They could also sit down and rework the entire engine. Like I said, they're smart. But to the PMBR, that's a waste of time. They're specialists. Why take the video editor and force him to learn how to import? He's a video editor, let him work his craft. Sitting down and reworking the engine only helps those who want to know how it works. And the only people who want to know how it works already know how it works. It would only serve to slow them down, you know?
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« Reply #1940 on: July 08, 2014, 06:55:26 PM » |
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While it is your personal opinion as you painstakingly made clear, Spex, my problem is your exaggeration of what I'm saying. Not everyone needs to learn, hell, I think it would make Project M rather lackluster and buggy if every single person on the team had input. Fact remains, 3, 4 or even 5 heads are better than two.
BrawlEX and the Clone Engine however, perform the same function. The result is adding more characters (or slots) that can be used for new characters or extra costumes. They are two different codesets achieving the same end through different means.
The problem with the Clone Engine as it stands is that it takes a very long time and the precision of a surgeon to edit it without causing problems, according to EY's earlier answer, and only two people know how to do that by any stretch. You're dragging your collective feet along simply because that's how you want it to be, the way you make it sound.
It doesn't matter how collectively smart the PMBR is if the trappings of your own decisions end up causing you problems that make doing the work a headache.
To clarify: I am impartial, despite the above, of whether you use the Clone Engine or BrawlEX, but the fact still remains: if you having a cumbersome code slows down your progress, then you should have other people fluent in coding look at it and let them suggest improvements. Being harder to edit doesn't make it more solid.
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 07:11:54 PM by Velen »
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« Reply #1941 on: July 08, 2014, 07:01:48 PM » |
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personal opinion.
Prepare for crucifixion
your personal opinion has flaws
damn im too late
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Muslims are literally murderers |
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« Reply #1942 on: July 08, 2014, 07:10:06 PM » |
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Prepare for crucifixion
damn im too late
I made some extra popcorn. You can have some if you want. |
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  In other words, LURK MORE. In other news, birds fly, sun shines, fishes swim, and the sky is [censored]ing BLUE. 3. ... You seriously don't know who Clinton is? If only hacking Brawl paid bills. O snap But you are in a Smash Bros. thread.
You can't have an opinion here. |
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« Reply #1943 on: July 10, 2014, 06:52:54 AM » |
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since we are talking about the coders, I actually want to ask them personally some question. it isnt about the P:Ms codes but about coding itself and learn during the process!
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Stupid Tinypic :C
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« Reply #1944 on: July 10, 2014, 11:20:30 PM » |
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I have a question about Project M. Is it possible to add more costumes to a character?
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E-scope [PICTURE REMOVED. Reason: All signature pics must fit a 695x200 frame.]  [/url] |
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« Reply #1945 on: July 11, 2014, 08:06:01 AM » |
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I have a question about Project M. Is it possible to add more costumes to a character?
Check this thread out. It has a small tutorial on that, but it says it is for the 2.5b version not 3.0. Idk if that will matter or not though. I haven't tried. |
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« Reply #1946 on: July 11, 2014, 03:20:33 PM » |
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I have a question about Project M. Is it possible to add more costumes to a character?
You'll need Mewtwo2000's CBliss tool. |
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« Reply #1947 on: July 12, 2014, 10:49:35 AM » |
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Four videos I think are very relevant to Project M as a game. I looked these over last night and I think as subjects of discussion, these are very recommended to watch. The last one I think I is also very relevant to Fighting Games in general. |
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 10:51:55 AM by Velen »
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3DS Friend Code: 2895-6640-9302 |
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« Reply #1948 on: July 12, 2014, 11:14:52 AM » |
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pretty interesting videos.
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« Reply #1949 on: July 12, 2014, 12:25:45 PM » |
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Interesting indeed, but I honestly don't see what most of these videos have to do with P:M. Balancing for Skill does seem pretty relevant since I don't think that much effort is put into the balancing of characters to favor non-competitive skills. But for the others, I think we'd need a bit of an explanation as to why they would be pertinent to this specific project.
As a side-note, it got drowned out by large walls of texts but I'm still waiting for an answer as to my suggestion of switching to BrawlEx on the long-term.
Does that long silence mean consent, or is it taking you guys that long to find some popcorn?
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 12:31:19 PM by Miacis »
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Round and round the signature goes ~ ~ where it stops, nobody knows. |
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