Messages

Personally, I'm done arguing. Miacis thinks the PMDT has it out for KCMM and doesn't care whether he's doing the right thing by us, because he just doesn't like us or trust us. I get it. The thing is that I love KCMM, always have, and I always will, but if this is how the site is run, and this is the caliber of person who's involved in the leadership, I'd rather have my account axed and not be associated with it anymore.

Goodbye, KCMM.

Hey, don't drag the community into this. It's the leadership that's the problem here.

Hey, it's open season, everyone! Why work on your modding skills when you can work on your hacking skills instead, steal not-yet-released work from other modders' computers, and release it as your own!?

Go nuts! Miacis is cool with it!

Playtesting a pre-release moveset for another modder? Why not beat them to the punch and release it yourself!? It's totally fine as long as you credit the person whose work you intentionally stole!

I mean, this has never happened before, so why stop it when it does? Why not just let everyone go for it!?

In all seriousness, ask yourself why this kind of theft has "never happened" on the vault. The answer is that everyone knows deep down that it's wrong, and they assumed they wouldn't get away with it. If you let them, you've thrown any semblance of dignity this site had out the window.

It's not a clear cut black vs white scenario. You could take an edge case of people hacking into your dropbox. I could answer with authors that prevent people from posting valid hacks for selfish reasons.

The reason we're still going for that approach is because we've never had incidents like the former happen, but we've had creators that did the latter.

Yeah, I guess the former has never happened because someone took stuff from our SVN, not a dropbox, and they gained their access through trust instead of hacking. Darn. You got us. Those are totally different situations.

This is exactly the kind of theft you just described, and you know it, and you have the power to do something about it, and you're choosing not to. There's no slippery slope here. You could do well known and liked artists a solid, but instead, you're letting them down.

I'm so disappointed in this site right now. This is the community I learned to mod in, and this is well below the mutual respect I'd expect from it, no matter how you want to rationalize it.

Also, it seems that no matter how careful I am to point out that there are differing opinions on the subject and neither is wrong, I still have to listen to people accuse me of thinking there's no merit in the other side's idea, even though I JUST SAID there was nothing wrong with it in my last post and that it just didn't happen to be the way we went.

You can paint me as some kind of elitist monster all you want. I've acknowledged that your opinion has merit. Meanwhile, you continue to tell me that it's a fact that our opinion is wrong.

Who's the one who won't acknowledge the validity of the opposing opinion again?

It doesn't matter how much you put a spin on it, the fact will always remain that he plays and looks too much like Fox.

That is entirely an opinion, no matter how much you try to spin it as a fact.

Also adding that changing that could (censored) off a ton of top tier people that uses fox and falco BECAUSE of their melee predecessors. Believe me, aton of guys at my gaming club love fox/falco the way they are. And I seen alot of pm tourney displaying just how great and technical using those two are. It is best not to fix whats not broken, and just leave that melee influence alone.

And I'm saying this, not because I disagree with you (I want this change to happen), but for all of those annoying competitive guys who spent hours and hours training with characters that are hard to master would probably just stop playing pm altogether.

Besides, there is alot for casual players now.

If I'm reading correctly, Miacis, you're saying this guy's friends, who are happy that we brought back Melee Falco, don't deserve to keep that, because there are people who would like to play something different. Forgive me if I don't think that's as unassailably fair as you do.

I'll put it another way. Say you were in charge of the PMBR, and you decided to change Falco, and a Falco main walked up to you and asked why. The answer would be, "His moves looked too similar to Fox, so we changed him."

Say he responded, "But he played totally different, even though they appear similar. If you think they were too similar, you don't understand the character at all. I actually liked that he and Fox appeared similar but played totally differently, because it made sense to me, since they're on the same team, but they're also rivals. Seeing them use similar fighting styles in their own unique way was really fun for me. Now Falco's just got a bunch of weird stuff that you guys made up that doesn't make any sense, and we've completely lost that unique connection between the two characters."

Would you completely ignore his opinion that it's OK for Fox and Falco to be similar and that it's not inherently lazy or boring?

The problem is that you're not wrong, but we're not wrong either, so there's not really a lot I can say beyond my initial response. If you choose to disagree with it, that's fine, but no matter what you say, there's no right or wrong answer here. There is no "this is good game design" and "this is bad game design" no matter how many people try to reduce it to those terms.

Basically, you're choosing to see our decisions as "mistakes," whereas I've tried to point out that they're not perfect, but that there is no perfect answer.

[tl;dr:]

Are Fox/Falco players notably more intolerant to change than Samus/Ganondorf players?

tl;dr: Is there any point for me, "casual" player, to play any of the copy-paste characters that I've already played for more than 7 years?

It's not so much about how intolerant they are to change. It's more that the better a character did in Melee, the less change they underwent, generally. Remember, this game was made for competitive smash players, but the game it's based on is Melee, so we brought back what worked in competitive Melee and went from there.

(Although, I do think it's fair to assume that the worse a character is, the more its players would appreciate change.)

Is there any point for a casual player to play the Melee tops in Project M? If you look at the character in a vacuum, no, not really. However, the Melee tops finally have an entire viable cast of characters they now have to fend off and learn how to fight, which may not be as exciting as having new moves, but you can't really say that you might as well just play Melee. It's the same character, but it's a very new game.

Still, I don't expect you'll be excited by that, and I don't blame you, but why should we take that away from people who will be, especially since they're the kind of players who started this game, and that's always been the audience we've aimed at. In short: if you want an entirely new character, we've provided that. If players want to revisit the top Melee characters in a new game, we've provided that, too.

That way, there's something for everyone, which is what we thought Sakurai forgot about Brawl. He deliberately took away things that competitive players want. Instead, we're choosing to cater to both audiences, but that will certainly mean that not every decision pleases each camp.

pretty sure the clone engine was harder though :P

You'd be surprised. Coding issues, like the clone engine, either work or they don't, and finding solutions just takes patience and logic.

A new announcer is an artistic thing, which means we could work on it forever and never figure out how to get it just right, and it would be extremely difficult for us to produce it with quality as high as the current announcer. Given the choice between every announcer sound in the game being slightly inferior and two of them being slightly inferior, I'll take two of them.

I got your point exactly, which is why I explained that it'd be extremely hard for us to replace the announcer with a new one that actually sounds good.

It's not really a matter of sounding like the announcer or not. It'd be fairly near impossible for anyone to imitate it closely enough that it would sound right (as I said, even other clips from the same guy sounded off, because they weren't recorded with the same studio setup), especially since we don't exactly have the same level of professional recording equipment.

You'd have to replace the announcer entirely with someone new, and even then, sound quality would be an issue due to lack of access to a real recording studio.

Which "other words", specifically? xD

Just curious.

For example:
Mewtwo's uses the M from the middle of Samus (other M sounds sounded too harsh, because of the way it was modeled after the announcer's YouTube one where he emphasizes the "two," where "Mew" is softer.) So, it's M-you ("you" sound from "continue?") -TWO! (Two from, well, "two!")

They're far from ideal, but they're our best solution so far.

Just going by memory and rumors, but I believe the SSBB announcer himself did make those. He sent several name-calling clips to the community after they had gathered a list of favorites they wanted to hear him say. I think there's a video on YT with it...
Yeah...
Here:
Brawl Announcer Does Some Additional Voicing

Actually, we didn't use those, because the sound quality was too different. We borrowed sounds from other words the announcer says.

A fix should be coming in the near future. We didn't want to miss the release over a relatively small issue.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVdEOLXSesDdHpEX1hsSDJLamtHQ19xZ3czS0lEbVE&usp=sharing

Hey, everybody. If you don't know who I am, I'm listed as one of the top downloaded artists on the Vault due to my custom character animations, and I'm the animator of Project M's Mewtwo.

I've learned a lot while animating an entire character from scratch, and I wanted to give back to the community a little bit and share my knowledge.

The above spreadsheet has the most detailed list of character animations I'm aware of, so feel free to make a copy for yourself as a way to keep yourself organized while animating. (It also happens to show animations that may be deleted from a Project M animation file, because some animations may be removed from PM animation files to save space.)

Creating Mewtwo, I kept a list of each animation and color coded it to remind myself which ones were done, which needed more work, and which I hadn't even started. I'd recommend a similar approach for anyone taking on a large animation project.

If you have a question regarding a specific animation that is not answered by the spreadsheet, feel free to ask me here.