[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Miacis]

While the animations may be largely identical, Fox and Falco vastly different physics and hitbox settings that make the characters play different enough in competitive play, especially in mid and higher levels while having them both work competitively, effectively making them different characters.

But that is completely irrelevant to my point. I'm not talking about minute changes in character properties and how it can satisfy tournament players. I'm talking about casual players and the quest for giving characters their own personnality. "Jumps higher, blasts stronger, runs slower" is not a what I call originality.

Keep in mind that lots of companies/franchises have been successful by sticking with what worked with minor changes, like most franchises made by Capcom back in the late 80s and 90s, such as the NES Mega Man games.

That used to work 20 years ago. Not so much nowadays. But even then, as soon as Megaman X came in, people immediately jumped onto it. And for fighting games, yeah, SC [censored]ed up their transition. Take a game like UMvC3 and you've got a game which changed things, yet didn't mess up.

Because, as I already mentionned, changes and quality are unrelated. You can make changes and not do crap, and people will be happy. Alternatively, you can not do anything, but after 7 years of the same don't expect to receive more than a lukewarm reception.

Actually, even though characters like Fox and Falco are largely the same as Melee, playing them in PM IS a new experience while staying familiar. The mechanics and game around them have changed to the point where it's a different flavor. There are new techniques to use(Footstooling), new and improved characters to fight, and more environments and such that were not present in Melee Their Matchups and such are also very different in PM due to the larger variety of viable characters.

I know it's a tradition when talking metagame to blow out of proportion small things, but we're talking about regular players, who will use footstooling about as often as you can expect. The fact that Falco is a complete copy-paste of his Melee counterpart is way more of an eye-catcher than the fact that hey, some very specific mechanics are a bit different.

Basically, what you're telling me is that there's definitely things for casuals and the like to appreciate in PM... but I won't find them in the top tiers, which only the tournament players might enjoy.
And I say this is kind of a stupid approach.

If you want a Falco in PM that has what you want, I recommend doing it yourselves.

In case it was not obvious, I was talking about the current build of the game. .-.
"Do it yourselves" is nice and all, but what I'm kinda talking about is what the game is currently offering me and how I find it quite lackluster.

If I'm reading correctly, Miacis, you're saying this guy's friends, who are happy that we brought back Melee Falco, don't deserve to keep that, because there are people who would like to play something different. Forgive me if I don't think that's as unassailably fair as you do.

Nostalgia makes a poor mistress. She makes you yearn for what you already possess, and stops you from acquiring what you could possess.

I'm sure I can find a few people in my entourage who really missed the old Young Link, and would be most delighted to see it RESTORED TO HIS FORMER GLORY, yet would enjoy the new one even more.
Following your logic, you guys have been very unfairly breaking the hopes and dreams of all [insert non-top tier Melee character here] by changing their movesets. It's a logic which assumes that people cannot aquire new tastes, and it's kinda silly.

Would you completely ignore his opinion that it's OK for Fox and Falco to be similar and that it's not inherently lazy or boring?

I'd answer:
"I understand your concerns about the new moveset. However, we deemed that this major Melee fighter deserved a more distinctive move pool, while still keeping some of his aspects that made him so unique to play. No worries, though, he's retained a lot of tricks he's learnt from the Starfox team! He just uses them in his very own way, like the rebel he is. We've put a lot of effort into making him as balanced and effective a character as possible, and I hope you'll try it before making a judgement on him. He might even grow on you."
(This is a fun roleplay, btw.)

Oh, and please don't twist my words. I never said to make him completely different. I said to make him not a [censored]ing replica, aka, you should keep several similarities between the two to still have that "rivals" connection. You know, like for Wolf. (But without the silly Landmaster think I suppose. )
Even Mario and Luigi have more distinctive movesets, and they're [censored]ing brothers.

There is no "this is good game design" and "this is bad game design" no matter how many people try to reduce it to those terms.

You're not giving any good reason for a large part of your audience to play many of your characters. You may say it's a purely subjective flaw, but that doesn't make it true.

That is entirely an opinion, no matter how much you try to spin it as a fact.

Okay, it's an opinion. It's a strong, argumented opinion. What now?

[BlackJax96]

What now?

We do nothing

[_Data_Drain_]

Well going into this Falco argument.

Some people are already ticked off with some changes made to the P:M versions of Brawl newcomers...

Like a friend of mine who hates how Lucario basically became Lucaryu.

Or me with Lucas... I dislike the P:M version for getting rid of some of the things that made the character fun for me to play as. Zap Jumping, PK Fire into PK Shield to air dash... Etc etc.

I think Falco mains could stand to have their character changed a slight bit too.

Maybe not ALL the moves. But look at Ken and Ryu. Ken over the years has started getting his own moves. While still being VERY similar to Ryu, Ken puts his own spin on things. He also has new specials, and supers.

Why can't Falco have this? A few different normals and whatnot?

[BlueBrain]

why not balance "brawl falco" in a melee context?

he is still very similar to melee falco in most of the animations, but has some new distinctive moves, and instead of thinking of ways to make these moves fit the P:M context you say, u know what? [censored] this [censored] and lets just make melee falco.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

You guys love beating this dead horse of an argument that has been had numerous times over the past couple of years don't you?

[Bad Box Art Mega Man]

You guys love beating this dead horse of an argument that has been had numerous times over the past couple of years don't you?

agreed, let's start a new conversation; like somehow getting brinstar depths to spin?

[nanobuds]

Tell a giant lava monster thing to slap it.

That'll make it spin fo sho.

[Bad Box Art Mega Man]

hold on, i wasn't taking notes... okay, and what motivation should we give this said lava monster named kraid?

[Mochtroid127]

If there's any character that was restored to argue about, it would be Ganon, :P and apparently I'm the only Ganon main that doesn't like the P:M version a whole lot. I still like to use him occasionally, but I don't feel like I could rely on him to be my main like in Melee. Regardless, I'll just let it go since there are plenty of other characters to choose from. Hell, I love Snake, so I'll just main Ganon in Melee. Works for me since I have a different main in every SSB game anyway. Just my opinion, but someone who is really good at the game is someone who can master any character based on what they're given to work with.

Anyway, wouldn't getting Kraid to spin the platform have to be scripted to go specifically a certain direction at a certain time with a loop rather than randomly like the Melee version? Although, then there's Port Town which always moves the same way, but hits the stops in a random order so... jfdklsa;jifaf so confusing!

[SonicBrawler]

I was playing turbo with my friend. Giga v giga is insane. Just keep
Using down b then go into an up smash or down air. Who ever thought of turbo is awesome.

[SJS]

How dare you guys talk negatively about PM. Like, seriously.

[Mochtroid127]

I was playing turbo with my friend. Giga v giga is insane. Just keep
Using down b then go into an up smash or down air. Who ever thought of turbo is awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ

[OmegaMalkior]

I was playing turbo with my friend. Giga v giga is insane. Just keep
Using down b then go into an up smash or down air. Who ever thought of turbo is awesome.

This^ x9001
I love going on Turbo against a lvl. 9 cpu Giga Bowser while using Roy/Marth at a 0.5 ratio. I don't think it can get more intense than that [censored]!

[SiLeNtDo0m]

How dare you guys talk negatively about PM. Like, seriously.

Talking negatively isn't the issue.  Raising an argument that has been raised a thousand times and has been beaten to death is.

[SJS]

Talking negatively isn't the issue.  Raising an argument that has been raised a thousand times and has been beaten to death is.

If people have something to say let them say it... without making them feel stupid for having said it.