Recently the quality of hacks and the attitude sorrounding them set by the precedent that the limitations are a legitimate excuse for said quality of them was brought up in a chat recently. While the way I worded it may have been harsh, I honestly feel I wouldn't have wanted to word it any other way despite who I may or may not have pissed off. (90% of character hacks? I exaggerated, it's much less)
I wanna know if KCMM's general opinion agrees with them. Like I mention, we're able to appreciate hacks a lot more because we understand the limitations people have to deal with and the troublesome process it takes to achieve this. When brawl hacks are brought up on countless other sites, most of them bashed regardless. And in reality, it's not the creator's fault it "sucks:" the best of hacks here are made worse with normal problems. Any shape that's drastically different from the original (read: most good hacks!) look significantly more messy and low-poly.
Just take a look at examples --
(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/503/al1102271642binout.jpg) (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/al1102271642binout.jpg/)
(Nulled normals on the left, BY's most recent Zero edit) It's likely you've seen this before, but really look at the differences. His Helmet is the most straightforward change, and but if you look, his neck is a decent amount cleaner as well. Normals skew shading, they don't only just make certain seams noticeable. (as with Aafyre's Gengar (http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8697/gengarmoon.jpg))
Take a look at an edited version of Mariokart's Mewtwo in brawlbox...
(http://content.screencast.com/users/GFLK/folders/Jing/media/d5977ec5-fbb6-4b1b-982c-08a9a0a6e894/2011-02-27_2159.png)
Now in-game
(http://i46.tinypic.com/ilvdja.jpg)
On my Young Link, I noticed that while I was satisfied with his face in BrawlBox, the in-game result had a harder-looking, less youthful face.
(http://content.screencast.com/users/GFLK/folders/Jing/media/c82deda0-53f3-4088-ac5f-18c997112aae/2011-02-27_2212.png)
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/465/al10100313212binout.jpg)
(I don't have many close up shots of his face left in bad lighting. all of them were on brawlsnapshots. which is down)
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5205/wherealldaworldspepole.png)
and here's Lightning. In brawl, there's noticeable seams everywhere, face is shaded flat, legs are blocky, and her hair's lighting is inconsistent. (like my Roy's) If full on normal editing doesn't come out, I plan on picking her back up and use normal nulling techniques shown in BY's Zero. This is an unreleased hack.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1418/lighto.png
(linked to for size)
There's tons more examples.
We appreciate things in spite of crippling flaws the artist's model has to deal with in the end product. Yes, these flaws still make it mediocre. There isn't an excuse, and there never will be a legitimate excuse until we fix normal problems. While fixing vertex weights would be great, and is another problem, It's not
that bad if the original model is good. And totally avoidable. Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
And of course, here's the logs I was referring to earlier
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
every hack I listed above looks good under certain conditions. But when you pause randomly, without trying to get good shots, the hack more often than not has some shading issues.
Yeah, I agree with Pik 100% here.
People, these guys are working hard at changing Brawl models into something they weren't made to be. For example, Lucario wasn't supposed to be Mewtwo. So problems such as those are inevitable. Blame Brawl's original model artists, not the guys who made the vertexes. They're the reason these limitations exist. :P
You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed. :srs:
Quote from: Pik on February 28, 2011, 03:57:09 AM
Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
Quote from: TARGET on February 28, 2011, 04:22:16 AM
You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed. :srs:
If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).
Quote from: BlackJax96 on February 28, 2011, 04:49:27 AM
Quote from: Pik on February 28, 2011, 03:57:09 AM
Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
Quote from: TARGET on February 28, 2011, 04:22:16 AM
You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed. :srs:
If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).
I'm not a random C# dev >.>
LOL the infamous MSN log.
Well, all that aside. What a beautiful Lightning, and very nice fix for MarioKart64n's Mewtwo.
http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0
Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#
Quote from: LordNOaH on February 28, 2011, 02:36:09 PM
http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0
Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#
Who's crying? I just said it would be faster if people did know C#...
Quote from: VILE on February 28, 2011, 06:14:28 AM
I'm not a random C# dev >.>
No, you're not. :P
Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?
Quote from: BlackJax96 on February 28, 2011, 04:49:27 AM
Quote from: Pik on February 28, 2011, 03:57:09 AM
Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless
Quote from: TARGET on February 28, 2011, 04:22:16 AM
You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed. :srs:
If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).
That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
What's wrong with python >.>
I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
Quote from: ForOhFor Error on March 01, 2011, 01:33:30 AM
That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
What's wrong with python >.>
I assume C# was referred to because thats what brawlbox was written in
Tcll is doing a lot of work in python with his converter and gfx viewer though
Yeah, python's cool. But it'd be easier to just edit Brawlbox, which is already set up, instead of making a converter from scratch.
Quote from: SmashClash on March 01, 2011, 12:30:25 AM
Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?
>_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.
Quote from: VILE on March 01, 2011, 01:33:36 AM
I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
Please do. :oshi:
>.>
I like how Zero looks with obscure normals...
...And Mewtwo...
...And YLink...
Quote from: BeyondYou on March 01, 2011, 02:06:07 AM
Quote from: SmashClash on March 01, 2011, 12:30:25 AM
Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?
>_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.
Quote from: VILE on March 01, 2011, 01:33:36 AM
I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
Please do. :oshi:
Oh, well good job fixing the shading issue. ;)
Quote from: VILE on March 01, 2011, 01:33:36 AM
I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
You can do that?
...
...
Do it, you would be a hero amongst vertex hackers everywhere.
Quote from: _Data_Drain_ on March 01, 2011, 02:45:00 PM
Quote from: VILE on March 01, 2011, 01:33:36 AM
I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.
You can do that?
...
...
Do it, you would be a hero amongst vertex hackers everywhere.
^This, totally this. If you could make that, you would be crowned to hero for sure xD
I know what Pik means. No, not Pikmins. >.>
Almost all my friends say that these vertex characters suck when they come over to play. And I only download the best ones. RARELY they say "hey, that's good". One of my friends actually enjoys them a lot even not knowing how limited we are on the editin', but I guess he's an exception.
To the world, vertex hacks are and will be forever lame unless
1 - Normals are editable
2 - Vertex not limited by bones anymore (no more bone disabling)
The bone tree modifier is now possible, and it's lack was actually the reason why Mariokart64n left. I wonder if he knows it's possible now?
lol My Mewtwo Brawl Pic.
I agree with Pik.
So many vertex hacks have potential to look good and instead they look Nintendo 64ish, especially the hair on characters like Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Cloud Ike, etc. Normals are a big problem too, The most obvious example being Gengar. You could re-texture someone's pants to look like skin, but because of Normals It ends up looking like skin textured pants rather than skin. Although sometimes It is the hacker responsible for the hack not living up to It's full potential, rather than the limitations that the people who made the game gave us. For example, a common problem with Peach vertex hacks is that most people don't bother to change her face. So you can still tell It's Peach even though they changed the rest of her body.
The easy solution to all of this is If the developers of the game simply gave us the tools they used to make It, but obviously that's not going to happen.
Quote from: PAVGN on March 02, 2011, 11:07:17 PM
The easy solution to all of this is If the developers of the game simply gave us the tools they used to make It, but obviously that's not going to happen.
Somebody should ask them for lulz
great idea :af:
but does anyone know sakurai's email address?
Quote from: br3compactor on March 02, 2011, 04:59:24 AM
I know what Pik means. No, not Pikmins. >.>
Almost all my friends say that these vertex characters suck when they come over to play. And I only download the best ones. RARELY they say "hey, that's good". One of my friends actually enjoys them a lot even not knowing how limited we are on the editin', but I guess he's an exception.
To the world, vertex hacks are and will be forever lame unless
1 - Normals are editable
2 - Vertex not limited by bones anymore (no more bone disabling)
The bone tree modifier is now possible, and it's lack was actually the reason why Mariokart64n left. I wonder if he knows it's possible now?
All I have to say is screw them :srs: There's plenty of great vertexes out there. Heck even if their knowledge is limited, they should still be able to appreciate a vertex for what it is.
It's strange, because as far as this community goes, vertexes are easily by far the most appreciated hack method here. The days of great pure textures are basically non-existant now. A great PSA comes every once in a blue moon. Great stages are fairly common (especially now), but not as much as great vertexes now.
Stage hacks have more potential then everything else, though.
It's currently in a more advanced level then Vertex Hacking and PSA.
Quote from: msp26 on March 03, 2011, 05:38:31 PM
great idea :af:
but does anyone know sakurai's email address?
idk nintendos pretty cool.... mabye word it cleverly. Or just ask for tips.
or mabye he will shut us down.
Id ask one of the people who did the programming though. I think he was jsut in charge of making sure it got done and like the overall ideas.
Yeah, Nintendo helping hackers, yeah.
Encouraging more people to softmod their Wii.
Maybe we should send a letter
QuoteDear Nintendo,
Give us the tools or we'll bomb you!
KC:MM
:srs:
Now, lets talk serious, people.
My bad, sarcasm is hard to convey on the internet, but I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn't serious.
Quote from: br3compactor on March 03, 2011, 06:23:05 PM
Stage hacks have more potential then everything else, though.
It's currently in a more advanced level then Vertex Hacking and PSA.
It's only because stages can use multiple models :D
I'm not joking. I'd be flattered if people were dedicating so much time and effort to my game. I think he would be too.
Yeah, and I'd be flattered if my game was often referred to as "[censored]" and was remade by the community because they didn't like it.
P:M
Brawl+
etc
/sarcasm
/off-topic
I won't even comment on this anymore, let's get back to topic.
But as a final comment I'll give you this, I'd surely be impressed as a developer to see where Brawl Hacking is reaching, and the skill of some people.
Nintendo is probably watching this site looking for their next employees.
Or, getting a buttload of reasons to sue pretty much every Brawl Hacking site in the history of forever. But I digress. >_>;
Quote from: LC-DDM on March 04, 2011, 04:59:34 PM
Or, getting a buttload of reasons to sue pretty much every Brawl Hacking site in the history of forever. But I digress. >_>;
They can't really. It would be impractical, and would drain finances, especially if the trials were somehow dragged out.
Not if they got Phoenix Wright as an attourney, but we just drifted WAY beyond Off-Topic. >_>;
Hey Vile, are you seriously considering picking up making a normal editor?
Quote from: Pik on March 04, 2011, 11:31:44 PM
Hey Vile, are you seriously considering picking up making a normal editor?
Well all i have to do is change like 2 values in my vertex editor and its practically done.
I still haven't ported my code to C# though, so until that gets released, there will be no normals.