Yo KC. Some [censored]'s going down ITT

[Pik]

Recently the quality of hacks and the attitude sorrounding them set by the precedent that the limitations are a legitimate excuse for said quality of them was brought up in a chat recently. While the way I worded it may have been harsh, I honestly feel I wouldn't have wanted to word it any other way despite who I may or may not have pissed off. (90% of character hacks? I exaggerated, it's much less)

I wanna know if KCMM's general opinion agrees with them. Like I mention, we're able to appreciate hacks a lot more because we understand the limitations people have to deal with and the troublesome process it takes to achieve this. When brawl hacks are brought up on countless other sites, most of them bashed regardless. And in reality, it's not the creator's fault it "sucks:" the best of hacks here are made worse with normal problems. Any shape that's drastically different from the original (read: most good hacks!) look significantly more messy and low-poly.

   
Just take a look at examples --


(Nulled normals on the left, BY's most recent Zero edit) It's likely you've seen this before, but really look at the differences. His Helmet is the most straightforward change, and but if you look, his neck is a decent amount cleaner as well.  Normals skew shading, they don't only just make certain seams noticeable. (as with Aafyre's Gengar)  

Take a look at an edited version of Mariokart's Mewtwo in brawlbox...


Now in-game


On my Young Link, I noticed that while I was satisfied with his face in BrawlBox, the in-game result had a harder-looking, less youthful face.



(I don't have many close up shots of his face left in bad lighting. all of them were on brawlsnapshots. which is down)


and here's Lightning. In brawl, there's noticeable seams everywhere, face is shaded flat, legs are blocky, and her hair's lighting is inconsistent. (like my Roy's) If full on normal editing doesn't come out, I plan on picking her back up and use normal nulling techniques shown in BY's Zero. This is an unreleased hack.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1418/lighto.png
(linked to for size)

There's tons more examples.  

We appreciate things in spite of crippling flaws the artist's model has to deal with in the end product. Yes, these flaws still make it mediocre. There isn't an excuse, and there never will be a legitimate excuse until we fix normal problems. While fixing vertex weights would be great, and is another problem, It's not that bad if the original model is good. And totally avoidable. Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless


And of course, here's the logs I was referring to earlier

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

every hack I listed above looks good under certain conditions. But when you pause randomly, without trying to get good shots, the hack more often than not has some shading issues.

[Tabuu Forte Akugun]

Yeah, I agree with Pik 100% here.

People, these guys are working hard at changing Brawl models into something they weren't made to be. For example, Lucario wasn't supposed to be Mewtwo. So problems such as those are inevitable. Blame Brawl's original model artists, not the guys who made the vertexes. They're the reason these limitations exist. :P

You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  :srs:

[BlackJax96]

Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless

You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  :srs:

If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).

[VILE]

Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless

You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  :srs:

If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).

I'm not a random C# dev >.>

[ItalianStallion]

LOL the infamous MSN log.

Well, all that aside. What a beautiful Lightning, and very nice fix for MarioKart64n's Mewtwo.

[??_?]

http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0

Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#

[BlackJax96]

http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=16807.0

Clearly someone has made a "better" mld0 previewer, maybe we should try to contact this person rather than crying about how nobody knows C#

Who's crying? I just said it would be faster if people did know C#...

I'm not a random C# dev >.>

No, you're not. :P

[SmashClash]

Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?

[ForOhFor Error]

Normal problems? there's some ways you can try to prevent them, but for the most part, they're uncontrollable. which is why people should focus on them and make brawl hacks have the potential to be flawless

You sometimes end up, for example, with models who have totally different body types or that don't match the bone structure, causing problems. And the normals issue, which of course kills shading and makes it look like the vertexed parts were just retextured. This can't be changed.  :srs:

If more people here knew C#, or where willing to learn it, Brawl hacks could be flawless. Random C# developers don't care about Brawl hacks, but we do. The problem is that most of us don't know C# (I do though). Brawlbox already has the mdl0 file separated into editable variables, but it takes time to write and edit code to modify them without errors. C# really isn't a hard language. Take the modset group for example. They're modifying Brawlbox's code, but not for character hacks. We need more developers to focus on editing mdl0 models and not other nodes (like SRT0 and AI).

That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
What's wrong with python >.>

[VILE]

I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.

[??_?]

That's not the only useful programming language, you know.
What's wrong with python >.>

I assume C# was referred to because thats what brawlbox was written in
Tcll is doing a lot of work in python with his converter and gfx viewer though

[BlackJax96]

Yeah, python's cool. But it'd be easier to just edit Brawlbox, which is already set up, instead of making a converter from scratch.

[Beyond]

Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?

>_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.

I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.

Please do. :oshi:

[DrPanda]

>.>
I like how Zero looks with obscure normals...
...And Mewtwo...
...And YLink...

[SmashClash]

Hey, Pik since you helped BY's Zero shading problem can you do the same with Gengar?

>_> Pik didn't help me. I did it myself.

I can get on writing a program to export normals into the MDL0, same principle as vertices.

Please do. :oshi:

Oh, well good job fixing the shading issue. ;)