Kitty Corp Meow Mix Forums

This may be too early with this, but ech.
I mentioned this a few days ago in the main Sm4sh modding thread, but for those who just lurk or don't read past thread pages, I'll give a rundown.

Ever since I've started playing Sm4sh and seeing the tier list, I've been wanting to make a balance overhaul to the majority of the cast. I would also like to eventually fix/remove/adjust various things that are jank about Sm4sh (Ex: Rage, Footstooling, Glitches, etc) when the tools are available.

My goal is to make every character viable in at least one way or another with no character being too bad to even bother with (Ex: Palutena, Zelda, etc) or too broken to even bother with (i.e. Bayonetta). Lower tier characters will be subject to various buffs, while higher tier characters will be left alone for the most part (unless an official patch overnerfed something and/or if something about them is broken).

The best I can do right now if Frame data, Attribute, and Hitbox edits, so Floating Point-related things (Ex: Witch Time, Counter damage multipliers, etc) cannot be changed at this current time until they're properly identified.

You can see the current changelist here (this pastebin will be updated as this mod progresses): http://pastebin.com/jSD8wcjM (http://pastebin.com/jSD8wcjM)

Download: None at the moment, unless if people really want to try what I have so far.

Feel free to give your own thoughts and suggestions. Suggestions from dedicated character mains are highly encouraged.

Credits:
-SilentDo0m. Suggested edits for Charizard, Roy, Shulk, Little Mac, and Mewtwo.
-Marioking64DS. Suggested edits for Wario.
-calculusx. Ideas taken from their thread on reddit (/r/smashbros) (https://sw.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4ess24/the_best_way_to_balance_bayonetta/).
-DarkLordRS. Suggested edits for Mii Gunner.
-Palutena and Dedede Boards (SmashBoards). Ideas taken from discussion threads.
-Zikkh Suggested edits for King Dedede.

PROJECT EM!?!?!?!?!

anyway. This is super cool. Puff will finally get the buffs she needs <3 I can take a crack at writing something up for her later.

Sheik needs buffs.

#MakeSheikGreatAgain

Well, well. This is gonna be something.

There's no reason for Sheik to have a godly neutral game, a godly recovery and an easy 50/50 kill opportunity from throws. If you're going to give her back her 50/50, nerf one of the other things I listed. IMO nerfing her Up B's distance (and perhaps removing the reappearance hitbox) would be the best change, as she'd keep her dominating presence on stage while actually having a weakness. I also don't see why you'd give her the old F-Air hitbox, as it was pretty ridiculous and the move is still one of the best aerials in the game.

As a ROB main here are some random things I'd like to see, but I might be a bit biased lol


That's about it. Only other thing I'd like to add is, consider just giving Marth his exact Brawl frame data/damage. He'd probably be balanced just fine, and super fun to play.

The reason why I reverted the 1.1.5 changes to Sheik were because I felt they were unwarranted changes, especially since Bayonetta's a thing. I could possibly revert my Forward Air revert, but I'd like to talk to people who know Shiek through and through.

Though I'll take your ROB suggestions into consideration.

Well yes, Bayonetta is a thing, but nobody wants her to be a thing (the way she is now) and you are nerfing her quite a bit, so. No reason to make Sheik S-Tier again while everyone else is A+ Tier, you know.

Not exactly my best ideas but I think Shulk could have like better frame data like 2-3 frames less startup on some moves and end lag, to make him more enjoyable.

Quote from: DrPanda on May 04, 2016, 09:18:40 PM
Sheik needs buffs.

#MakeSheikGreatAgain

Sheik? That's a weird way to spell Falco.

:falco:

I'm definitely going to make some Shulk edits. I believe SDo0m made some Shulk suggestions, so I'll be making those, too.

Quote from: Zikkh on May 05, 2016, 07:43:13 PM
Well yes, Bayonetta is a thing, but nobody wants her to be a thing (the way she is now) and you are nerfing her quite a bit, so. No reason to make Sheik S-Tier again while everyone else is A+ Tier, you know.

Again, I'll talk with people who know Shiek, and I'll make an attempt weed out and clear bias (for or against).

Edit: After a minor chat with someone, I'll consider reverting my changes to Down Throw. I'll also consider nerfing her needle damage potential.

Edit 2: Yeah, I'm gonna revert my changes to her throws and Forward Air, but I'll be buffing her Back Air.

Bring back the Poke-Trainer D=

er, I mean... Switch "Rock Smash" with "Flare Blitz" on Zard.. I keep doing the wrong damn moves

Quote from: Ӄit ßallarɖ on May 05, 2016, 09:04:46 PM
Bring back the Poke-Trainer D=

er, I mean... Switch "Rock Smash" with "Flare Blitz" on Zard.. I keep doing the wrong damn moves

Pretty sure that's impossible both in the realm of brawl and in smash4 solely because of float points being a thing.

Palutena is in serious need of frame data buffs. She has the tools to be a good character, but her moves are way too slow to really help her.

I agree with you 100%. Characters like Palutena are what inspired me to come up with the idea for a balance overhaul.

You have my interest, but the fact that you listed Palutena and Zelda as first examples of unplayability over Ganondorf and are still riding the Bayonetta Is Brawl Meta Knight train has me questioning everything I know

doesn't help that un-nerfing characters that are still tournament relevant after nerfs, like especially diddy kong, is somehow considered ideal

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 05, 2016, 11:06:00 PMthe fact that you listed Palutena and Zelda as first examples of unplayability over Ganondorf

They were just the first characters that came to mind.

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 05, 2016, 11:06:00 PMand are still riding the Bayonetta Is Brawl Meta Knight train has me questioning everything I know

Where did I say that Bayonetta was Brawl Meta Knight? My statement proclaimed she was too powerful for her own good. I'm fine with her being combo heavy, but I'm not okay with the 0 to deaths.

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 05, 2016, 11:06:00 PMdoesn't help that un-nerfing characters that are still tournament relevant after nerfs, like especially diddy kong, is somehow considered ideal

The revival of Hoo Hah was solely for the purpose of Memes, but I've made sure to nerf Up Air [it kills at around 150%, as opposed to mid 80% (though I may revert this if it proves to be too much of an issue]. I've also reverted my Shiek changes since the first post after some discussion with someone.

You're free to suggest your own changes though. With various characters, I'd need to weed out any bias (including my own) towards various characters to prevent overnerfing or overbuffing.

Remember when everyone thought Palutena was OP in the trailer?














I don't.

The calmest answer to anything overtly aggressive I've seen on this site. Impressive.

I have a lot of proposed changes to the Miis in particular, but I'd rather make those myself.. as soon as I get the files somehow. (Wish there was a filesystem of it hosted somewhere so I could download individual files as I need, but that's not a thing afaik and definitely not something legal to request.)

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 06, 2016, 06:12:03 PMThe calmest answer to anything overtly aggressive I've seen on this site. Impressive.

It's better to just discuss things in a rational manner, rather than let things get needlessly heated. I'm glad this didn't turn into any needless aggression either.

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 06, 2016, 06:12:03 PMI have a lot of proposed changes to the Miis in particular, but I'd rather make those myself.. as soon as I get the files somehow. (Wish there was a filesystem of it hosted somewhere so I could download individual files as I need, but that's not a thing afaik and definitely not something legal to request.)

You can get the Sm4sh character scripts here. http://www.mediafire.com/download/pgvx8t8a42x8o5f/SSB4U-CharacterScripts.7z (http://www.mediafire.com/download/pgvx8t8a42x8o5f/SSB4U-CharacterScripts.7z)

You'll need to get yourself the character motion files, too, so here's a video to help you out with that. ! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5blRjHXIw#)

shulk vertex hack request :

Quote from: KingJigglypuff on May 06, 2016, 07:12:52 PM
It's better to just discuss things in a rational manner, rather than let things get needlessly heated. I'm glad this didn't turn into any needless aggression either.
You can get the Sm4sh character scripts here. http://www.mediafire.com/download/pgvx8t8a42x8o5f/SSB4U-CharacterScripts.7z (http://www.mediafire.com/download/pgvx8t8a42x8o5f/SSB4U-CharacterScripts.7z)

You'll need to get yourself the character motion files, too, so here's a video to help you out with that. ! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5blRjHXIw#)

So. This means minor PSA edits are possible now?

Yes, minor moveset edits are possible. You just need to get yourself Sm4shCommand.

Edit: Changelist has been updated with Shulk edits.

As it turns out, I'm indefinitely shafted; Sm4shExplorer refuses to cooperate with my XP [censored] excuse for a laptop, and it doesn't have the space I'd need to hold a full dump of the game anyway.

I've got a basic preview video for everyone. It shows some of the changes made to Charizard, Roy, and Shulk.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_vUewbEaxE#)

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 09, 2016, 03:38:17 AM
As it turns out, I'm indefinitely shafted; Sm4shExplorer refuses to cooperate with my XP [censored] excuse for a laptop, and it doesn't have the space I'd need to hold a full dump of the game anyway.

RiP. You can always suggest your changes to me.

Quote from: KingJigglypuff on May 09, 2016, 01:11:44 PM
RiP. You can always suggest your changes to me.

I would but.. damn, man, do you have any idea how crippling it is to the creative process to not actually be able to put things into practice? All my dreams of Mii Gunner nonsense.. ruined.

Might compile stuff in a PM for you later ig

If you have the means to test mods, I can always send you the edited files once everything's done.

(Maybe this should be asked in the Wii U research thread but idk because I've been a little off from here lately), how far are we to see model importing becoming a reality?

Vertex editing's currently in its baby steps, so it might be a while until we get actual model importing.

Edit: The pastebin's been updated with Shulk and Mii Gunner changes.

Quick question, do you plan on making the Pits more different from each other? (making Dark Pit slower/stronger or something) or are they gonna get pretty much the same changes?

For now, I'll keep them the same for now. Any edits I make to Pit, I'll apply them to Dark Pit as well.

Gotcha.
Here's a list of Dedede changes I came up with. I could see some of them being a problem (like down throw to up air being too good?) but who knows.


As a side note, I'd also reduce Kirbys Side B Start up to 19 frames from 26 so its still slightly faster than Dededes.

Quote from: Zikkh on May 14, 2016, 09:10:42 PM-snip

I'll consider these changes, I'll have to talk to a few others to see if these changes are warranted or not.

Footstooling is great tho :c.
I feel like rage is a fair mechanic. I play competitively. When it comes to it, its all just utilizing the mechanics properly. Glitches can begone. Don't know if this bit was useful at all...
I'm really curious how smash4 modding  will continue to develop.

Rage being a bad mechanic is honestly just a super [censored]ty meme almost as bad as wavedashing being a glitch and chaingrabbing killing metagames. The only characters who "prove" how bull[censored] Rage is only do because they are, inherently, total bull[censored]- Rosa's Luma utilt, Mario's 0% up B kills, ZSS' up b ceasing to connect, etc. Far more characters benefit than not (heavies, featherweights, Meta Knight..) for it to be worth downscaling/entirely removing it

/rant

Quote from: ShadowMarth on May 15, 2016, 04:48:19 AMFootstooling is great tho :c.

I wasn't saying I was going to remove footstooling. My plans for footstooling are to decrease the base jumping height of a footstool and make footstool fall able to be teched.

Quote from: ShadowMarth on May 15, 2016, 04:48:19 AM
I feel like rage is a fair mechanic. I play competitively. When it comes to it, its all just utilizing the mechanics properly.

I'm aware there's people who don't mind rage, and I'm fine with that. I can understand there being a comeback mechanic in Sm4sh, but I feel Rage's execution wasn't all that great.

Though if I were wanting to keep Rage, I would want to tweak it so it doesn't affect moves with Weight/Fixed Knockback and decrease its effectiveness, so we don't get any stupidly early KOs or multi-hit attacks to fail.

For example, currently, Charizard's sweetspotted Forward Smash at max Rage (with no DI) can KO a Mediumweight (with a weight of 90) at around 84%, while it takes until about 109% (with no DI) for it to KO with no Rage. That's at least a 20% difference. This difference may also vary, depending on the weight of the target and how strong the attack is. If I were to keep Rage, I would want it to KO about 10% earlier. Maybe more, maybe less, but I don't want a massive 20% difference.

I had a long writeup, but then I realized it was stupid long, so tl;dr edition:

rage has downsides (downscaled combo ability, requires such an exorbitant percentage in order to be useful that the enemy will wipe you as soon as they respawn) to trying to abuse it and as i noted before the main godforsaken offenders for broken rage capacity like Rosalina are the ones who need nerfs, not the mechanic itself

pretend King Crimson dropped by to make this rant less terrible

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html)

actual 1.1.6 happening holy [censored]

Quote from: GameWatching on May 17, 2016, 09:29:30 AM
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html)

actual 1.1.6 happening holy [censored]

Well RiP. I better rename this to Patch 1.1.7 then. (https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/25/1.0)

Quote from: GameWatching on May 17, 2016, 09:29:30 AM
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html)

actual 1.1.6 happening holy [censored]

DAMMIT

How coincidental that this would happen after people have found a way to mod the game itself.

The changelist has been updated with Little Mac and Palutena changes.

Quote from: Ｂ ａ ｄ   Ｔ ｉ ｍ ｅ LC-DDM on May 18, 2016, 12:36:07 PMHow coincidental that this would happen after people have found a way to mod the game itself.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Illuminati_triangle_eye.png/738px-Illuminati_triangle_eye.png) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7yjRxZIUvQ)

Quote from: Ｂ ａ ｄ   Ｔ ｉ ｍ ｅ LC-DDM on May 18, 2016, 12:36:07 PM
How coincidental that this would happen after people have found a way to mod the game itself.

Also how coincedental that there happen to be obvious balance issues left in. Why, it's almost like they do that on purpose so they have excuses to sit on until they can cite them as the purpose for putting out a mod-killing update down the line.

Or maybe I'm paranoid and there's no grand "intentional faulty balance" conspiracy. Either one. :P

They only changed Bayo soooooooo rip

Reminder that the pulls of the Cloud patch from Nintendo's servers before it actually dropped only contained only a Mii costume and a few voice clips, omitting everything else until it's actual release.

Bayonetta was probably uploaded first as highest priority, but she's not the only change.

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 19, 2016, 12:18:24 PM
Reminder that the pulls of the Cloud patch from Nintendo's servers before it actually dropped only contained only a Mii costume and a few voice clips, omitting everything else until it's actual release.

Bayonetta was probably uploaded first as highest priority, but she's not the only change.

Uh... That's actually not true. Nobody really knew how to extract the "packed" character files except for me and a couple of others, so they just assumed that was all that the patch had. Cloud's model, the Midgar stage, the music etc. were all in that exact same patch that was supposedly "incomplete". :V

So what you're saying is, my knees aren't just sore from jumping to conclusions, they're broken?

Quote from: DarkLordRS on May 19, 2016, 02:56:25 PMSo what you're saying is, my knees aren't just sore from jumping to conclusions, they're broken?

Not necessarily, there was a lot of misconception going around at that time (and I basically didn't want to skew peoples' expectations), so I can't say I blame ya.

Looks like I don't need to nerf Bayonetta anymore, since Nintendo did that for me.

Anyways, the changelist has been updated with edits to King Dedede. Feel free to look over and give your thoughts, alongside any existing edits as well, as I would really appreciate feedback on these changes.

Though I'm thinking about moving this thread over to SmashBoards, but I'm gonna need to talk to a SmashBoards Mod/Admin on where to place said thread.

It's been so long since I've even touched this thread...

For those here on the Forums who haven't read my SmashBoards post on the matter, a TL;DR summary would be that I've decided to drop Patch 1.1.7 in favor of a more focused balancing project.

If you want to read more on why I've decided to drop Patch 1.1.7, then you can read the below spoiler.



You can read more about Sm4sh Remix (and even download its current progress) by going to the following thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/sm4sh-remix-a-competitive-smash-4-mod.445012/

We even have a Twitter handle if you wanna give us a follow: https://twitter.com/Sm4shRemix