Messages

That's not a Project M dev, it's just a guy doing some Bowser animations.

Why would we remove it?

If you go grab it from the site, yes.

I was curious enough to check: I'm not even sure when Brawl- did their TL thing, but ours was put into our SVN September 4, 2010. (Holy crap we've been doing this forever.)

- Wanna playtest? I hope you've been playing in tournaments, or playing with famous tournament-players.

To be fair, there's really not that much that a dedicated "low-level" player can tell us that we don't already know. And we have several members that aren't terribly excellent Smash players that have other jobs (video editing, modeling, etc) that we can get commentary from anyways.

As for "Just making everything Melee," that's not really true. There's a huge spectrum of opinions on what we should be doing: "Keep Brawl stuff," "Keep Melee stuff," "Do your own thing," and most people that fall somewhere in the middle. In general, we've been in the second column for most of development, but that becomes less the case as time goes on and we further establish our own identity.

Also please keep in mind that while you may firmly be of the "Stop just being Melee 2.0 plz" camp, we have plenty of vocal people on the other side of the coin. We're able to (generally) please both sets of people, which I think is one of Project M's strongest points.

...Just don't expect Falco to throw his reflector anytime soon.

Minor complaint, but it seems like in .68b I cannot stretch out the moveset panel, so it's stuck in an awkwardly-small state that makes it kind of hard to use.

Also the model viewer and the "main" window use different icons - Not sure if that's intentional or not. :P

Looking good though.

(Fixed. :3)Well, it's hearsay, and vague one at that, so no, I'm afraid I don't have any actual examples. Some people around here may be more informed than me (I'm rarely involved in these kinds of credits issues, tbh), but I'm just reporting what I heard about P:M taking stuff directly.
I'm a believer that there's no smoke without fire so, again, you might want to look into it and see that nobody is taking for granted any of the stuff that was made outside of P:M. Texture, sounds, specific moves, codes... anything. And if you're already doing it, well... keep going, I guess.

Can you please provide names of people who have mentioned this to you? It's a pretty serious allegation (Especially coming from an Admin of KC-MM) and you seem to be sidestepping effort on our part to track it down.

Then, I'm still a bit confused how you guys listened to the anti-change guys for all Melee characters AND think all the Melee characters are better without any major change. But for the Brawl characters, the outcry was apparently rejected several times and redoing the characters was deemed a necessity.

What makes you think we didn't change Melee characters? Look at Bowser, where his armor is now a major part of his viability. Look at Toon Link, who gets a lot of hate from people wanting Young Link 2.0. We've changed Sheik's DownThrow, much to the distaste of Melee Sheik players. Ganon has a lot of cool new things, etc.

(How you set up your quotes makes it look like I don't know how to spell Ad hominem.)

Well, I've heard of an opposite tale about using non-PMBR material, though in not enough detail I'm afraid.
I doubt everyone in your team is necessarily as straight with the creators as you say you are yourself, and that's probably why I just keep hearing some bad hearsays about P:M just taking whatever they want from the Vault.  :-\

Can you come up with examples? It's a pretty unfair claim to say that "the hearsay" says that we're yanking hacks off of random people.

So ... as a conclusion, you guys keep the Melee characters almost exactly as they were because you do believe it's what "you think is best"? Or because of the public outcry?
Getting some mixed signals there, trying to follow this conversation. Are you doing this because you decided to listen to the anti-change portion of your vastly diverse audience? Or because you, as hackers, believe that these characters would not benefit from being changed from their Melee incarnation?

Rarely is something black and white. If somebody has criticized it, we've probably had a discussion over it in the backroom.

I do agree on the thieving part of it. Claiming that something you didn't make is yours is certainly not something we enjoy too, but... I'm curious about the choice of words there. Why "ripping"? oô

First word that came to mind. Also I was long ago from the spriting community where people would "rip" sprites from games.  :kdance:

[Edit:]

But that means that alternate possibilities for a character (Falco being, like Velen said, better on air) won't be tried out at all, will they?

Why would we completely redo a character that is widely popular and has enjoyed a decade of tournament success? That'd be a slap to people who enjoy that character as he currently plays. Not to mention how much criticism we've already gotten for being too "change happy" on things that we didn't need to touch. (There was a huge outcry when we removed Wario's bike, for example.)

Project M is being made to appeal to several types of gamers. Oftentimes these different "bases" have wildly different opinions on things. We try and keep in mind how these things will "sell" to the public, but ultimately we do what we think is best for the project with the resources, goodwill, and time we have available.

All I want is a PAL release, really.

Making everything PAL-ready would essentially double the amount of work we'd have to do. Which is why we're not planning a PAL release until after we go "Gold."

I had heard 2.5 movesets don't work in vB.

We had to restructure some engine stuff, which is why every 2.5 character has a .rel file in 2.5. It'll crash without them. It's not something we did to dissuade people from using 2.5 characters in Brawl, it's something we did to make the game the best that it can be.


Edit: Adding in a few minor things that I missed before that I think should be addressed.

Because really, show me something where at one point people gave Brawl a chance for being a new installment, and I'll show you people that are lying, because Melee is really the only "good" Smash game in their eyes.

Melee fans were extremely excited for Brawl. Just because the game ended up disappointing them doesn't mean they were never willing to accept something new.

Watch Gimpyfish a well-known Bowser player and eventual PMBR member talk about Brawl before it came out. People were huge on every bit of Brawl news they could pick up on, and definitely tried their hardest to enjoy the game when it came out. If they sound/act conservative now, it's probably because Nintendo hasn't made a Smash game they've enjoyed in over a decade.

Also, there's a difference between a hobby mod, even if built better, and a group of people who sacrifice hours upon hours of their lives, sleeping in the office even, and being constantly rushed by fans to release the game. Sakurai damn near killed himself working too hard, and yes, the product wasn't polished, but there is no one to blame but the fans' greed for wanting the game.

Just so you know, Melee was the game that he pushed himself for. Your comment seems to be referring to Brawl, which isn't quite accurate.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle," Sakurai wrote. "Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind. I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle -- I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

[bottoms stay bottoms,]

It has a certain irony to it, considering that the PMBR is mostly just that: random hackers altering and distributing work made by other hackers from the whole Brawl hacking community.

The PMBR is big enough these days that we very hardly outsource work anymore. And I can't think of anything in P:M that we haven't spoken with the original creator over. (I spoke with Robzdahero about Dracula's Castle, which iirc is one of our biggest things originally done by somebody outside of the PMBR.)

Yyyyyyeah balance is all made out to be Melee-like. So Melee toptiers stay tops, bottoms stay bottoms, and everyone else gets a middle ground.

Simply untrue. While some people want us to more actively change/buff certain characters, we're hesitant on doing so because we want to see how the metagame advances with them. I think there are plenty of "sleeper" characters that are a lot better than the public gives them credit for. This isn't a rare occurrence in fighting games.


Going back to the main topic, I think the PMBR's stance of modding P:M has been wildly exaggerated and twisted. We're fairly open to modding most parts of Project M - There are numerous unofficial "P:M Ready" characters such as Roy that have been made by (At the time) not PMBR members. There's a large chunk of stages out there "tweaked" for P:M. (A lot of these don't even have stuff like our Camera changes, which are fairly important to the 'feel' of P:M, but we're not cracking down on that.)

People have made mods of the P:M HUD, of the character select screen, and of our stage selection screen. (Although less-so in 2.5 because that one is awesome.) We've allowed or even publicly encouraged all of this.

So with all that said, there's stuff we don't like people touching. Yet. We don't like people trying to make unreleased characters accessible, for fairly obvious reasons. (Why play 2.5b if you can play 2.5b with all unreleased characters?) We don't like people ripping stuff off of P:M without acknowledging it. (We had issues a year or two back with a fairly popular hacker stealing our stuff from an ancient leak, while simultaneously trying to call P:M shoddy. The KC-MM staff were quite supportive of us trying to close that stuff down, and we appreciated it.)

With all that said, it seems like this is turning into a thread of 10,000,000 words about a fairly minor disagreement on us on development. And a disagreement that we've stated numerous times is because we're still WIP. We have plans of making a lot of our behind-the-scenes works available to the public when we've hit "Gold." We've also released a good chunk of codes out to the public. We've added to the documentation of modules, variables, article floating points, etc. And next release, we'll undoubtedly have even more cool stuff to share with the public.

tldr; The PMBR likes to keep its cards close to its chest for hype and surprises for releases. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. It keeps things fun for us, and the information ultimately gets released to the public.

Why would you want a version other than 2.5b, though? It's mechanically worse, less polished, and has less characters.

I was playing as Ganondorf, against someone playing Dedede, and someone playing Luigi. I was at around 50-70%. Dedede sends me sailing through the air with his hammer, near the center of the stage, instead of recovering, I end up spiraling all the way to the blast zone below the stage, and I'm not even that far away from the ledge. If it were Brawl, I would've been able to recover and grab the ledge with his Up-B. That didn't happen due to the lack of hitstun canceling in Project:M.

If you were killed from the center of the stage as Ganondorf at mid-percent, you were doing something wrong. Something very, very wrong. The thing that first comes to mind would be the fact that you can't airdodge out of tumble in Project M, but uh... You would have had well over two seconds to just... Jump?

...Do you have any idea what you're asking?

Haven't tried out the final .67 release, but it's been looking mighty nice.

Good stuff, sir.

And just to confirm: Yes the stage is in Demo 2.1. Which is released. Go now.

Well we could post a lot and then it'd go away.

Anyway I found the location of these in each moveset file. The problem is, they need to be treated just like attributes because some values are int and others are float and they obviously aren't named in the file. I need to make a big txt file for all the value groups >.> I can get the txt file set up using code but I'll need to input the value names manually from that link.

yes?

Nice. That would make editing them far easier.