[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[♤♡◇♧]

You keep insinuating that trying to emulate Melee's gameplay is a regression.
That is simply not true.
Just because Melee is the older game, doesn't mean it's lesser than Brawl, might it be with hitstun or something else (otherwise we wouldn't even have Project M to begin with).

And I'm not misconstruing your words here.
The Melee players in my post and the Melee veterans in yours are one and the same, it's just the phrasing that's different here, nothing else.
And again, we also have Brawl 'veterans' in the backroom, so your argument that we would all be Melee 'veterans' is just plain wrong.

And recovering, while part of Smash, isn't the most important thing you try to make of it.
Limiting hitstun cancelling does indeed contribute towards faster gameplay, as you have less options to stall in the match, thereby increasing the pace of a match.

Also (and this may be a contributing fact towards your gripe with hitstun), there is something called 'Spikes', which make a return from Melee.
This in essential in an angle range that, when hit by, sends you down with a slight angle (I.E. Ganon's and C. Falcon's DAirs).
Then there is also something called 'Meteors', which have been in Smash since the 64 days.
These, like spikes, also send you downwards when hit by.
The key difference however is that while you are in hitstun when hit by both, you can cancel the knockback of a meteor, thereby giving you more lenience in terms of recovering, while a spike cannot be cancelled.
This might be a contributing factor to your reduced ability of recovering, as Brawl only had meteors.

All in all, the fact you don't particularly like a change doesn't necessarily mean it's a regression of gameplay, nor that it needs to be changed / fine-tuned (and trying to twist my words, or saying that you bust my bubble doesn't really help to bring over your cause either).

[LC-DDM]

Just because Melee is the older game, doesn't mean it's lesser than Brawl

That's funny... because that's exactly what everyone seems to think. Melee being more than Brawl even though it's older.

I speak of this not in a negative light... but the way I see it, there could be at least five different games of Smash, and they would all still be compared to and considered worse than Melee simply because the gameplay wouldn't be a direct sequel of Melee. Don't get me wrong, it's all well and good that you're doing this... but considering the path of this mentality, and where it's headed, would I be wrong to say future Smash games will have their own installment of P:M? (Where hacking is applicable, of course.)

[♤♡◇♧]

Seeing as Namco-Bandai is currently involved with the new Smash game, I don't see it happening any time soon.

[Miacis]

Seeing as Namco-Bandai is currently involved with the new Smash game, I don't see it happening any time soon.

That doesn't mean much, though. I'm pretty sure they didn't state what parts of development they would be involved in.
Not to mention, it's Nintendo we're talkin about here. Even if NB was in charge of the gameplay, if Nintendo wants the next SSB to be more casual-friendly, more random, more defensive and with little to no combo potential, NB will have to do with that directing line. And I doubt that Melee/P:M enthusists would be really pleased about it.

Another small question that I've been meaning to ask for a little while:
Who is in charge of writing character stuff on the P:M website?

There's a gross profanity to video game history in ROB's intro about "saving the entire video game industry", which ... might want to get fixed. it's been around for awhile now, actually.

[♤♡◇♧]

I trust it won't be as a party game as Brawl was.

And there are multiple people who write for the website, so I can't say for sure who wrote that part.
Regardless of that, I can easily pass it on and have someone fix that line (if felt necessary).

[Velen]

Spikes and meteors have nothing to do with my gripe with hitstun. Nor have they really ever caused a problem for me, cause I usually am able to dodge them a lot of the time.

(Spoiler due to size.)

My gripe with hitstun canceling not being possible is when in situations where you're sent sailing through the air in a shallow arch, and end up performing a lateral flight all the way to your death with no chance to recover at all, whereas in Brawl, you would be able to recover from it. Especially when this happens so close to the center of the stage.

Example being this: I was playing as Ganondorf, against someone playing Dedede, and someone playing Luigi. I was at around 50-70%. Dedede sends me sailing through the air with his hammer, near the center of the stage, instead of recovering, I end up spiraling all the way to the blast zone below the stage, and I'm not even that far away from the ledge. If it were Brawl, I would've been able to recover and grab the ledge with his Up-B. That didn't happen due to the lack of hitstun canceling in Project:M.

Being able to recover out of hitstun in a situation like that isn't stalling a match, that's playing the game, and trying to survive longer to give yourself a better chance of winning the match.

-not to mention the majority of players who played Brawl transitioning to Project:M won't know how to cancel the momentum from a meteor.

Furthermore, I'm not implying Melee is lesser because it is older as you think I do. I'm implying there are a few things that Brawl did better than Melee. The ability to cancel hitstun being one of them, allowing players and characters to survive longer. That's not stalling the match, that's playing the game. You might argue "-but it takes less/no skill that way!". Guess what? Neither does going up and using a spike on someone who literally has no choice but to watch it happen due to hitstun.

I think you guys think of that ability to cancel hitstun as stalling because you wouldn't be able to defeat your opponent's as easily or quickly if it were around, so its a hinderance to you: the Melee veteran, who played competitively in Melee as well as just plain played it. So it looks to me more like personal preference rather than a calculated decision. It's a regression of gameplay because it hurts character survivability, and force the player into a frustrating situation where they are literally helpless and unable to help their character survive longer than they would otherwise be capable of.

Furthermore: those Brawl veterans are probably people who were veterans in Melee as well, so I think that the argument that all of you being Melee veterans to be quite a valid argument as well as a plausible truth.

LC puts it precisely how I feel a lot of the Project:M Dev Team's decisions are largely influenced. There is literally, as far as I see, no deviation at all from how Melee was aside from difference of stages and characters. The mentality of the dev team to me seems to be that Melee was the perfect Smash game, and that any deviation from what it was is a bad thing.

-if it would improve on what was wrong with Melee rather than reverting it back to everything Melee gameplay-wise, then I wouldn't be as critical as I am being of Project:M. As far as I can tell though. The team has no intention of doing any such thing. As far as I know: this mod that changes a big majority of the game is the teams vision of how they think Brawl should've been: a clone a of Melee with new characters, and not much else.

I'll play the game, sure, but I'm not about to praise the team for making decisions largely based on bias towards Melee.

[LC-DDM]

I trust it won't be as a party game as Brawl was.

And there are multiple people who write for the website, so I can't say for sure who wrote that part.
Regardless of that, I can easily pass it on and have someone fix that line (if felt necessary).

Aren't all Smash games party games though?

[Miacis]

I trust it won't be as a party game as Brawl was.

And there are multiple people who write for the website, so I can't say for sure who wrote that part.
Regardless of that, I can easily pass it on and have someone fix that line (if felt necessary).

I wouldn't put my "trust" on Nintendo to disregard Brawl's sales crushing Melee's with its "party-game" gameplay, especially in Japan. But to each their own, I suppose.

And okay. It's a popular "Nintendo" myth that Nintendo/the NES/SMB/ROB 'saved the entire video game industry", so that person probably believes he's completely right.

The NES only revitalized the declining American market, while Japan and Europe were perfectly fine back in the day, and would have resurrected the western market on the next gen anyways. ROB was meant to help the NES to do that, but didn't really do that much in the end.
It's not totally false, it's just about as much of a shortcut as saying that Hiroshima won WWII by itself.

[♤♡◇♧]

@Velen
There things called DI, SDI, ASDI and DSDI, ever heard of them?
Because your argument that it removing hitstun cancelling hurts character survivability by that much is laughable.
And cancelling hitstun as soon as you enter it can indeed work stalling.

What's also laughable is that you keep using the 'Melee veteran' argument as a reason for why we would've removed hitstun cancelling.
We intend to keep, in accordance of the community, the best of all three Smash games, which favours most aspects of Melee (that the opinions of others who intend to play the game the fullest doesn't match with your opinion is up to you).
And while a lot of the backroom did indeed play Melee on a regular bases, it isn't 100%, and some even hail from the Brawl community (like TheReflexWonder, who made his fame in VBrawl with Wario and PT).
So again, your argument that the backroom is entirely made up of Melee 'veterans' is just plain wrong and uneducated.

And contrary to popular (and again, uneducated) believe, we do not think that Melee was a perfect game.
Melee, like most (if not all) games, has it's flaws.
That's why we aim at using the best elements from all three Smash games and combine them under one unified framework (thereby creating a game with tauntcancelling, wavedashing and DACUS all present).
We chose Melee as base due to the fact, while having flaws, wasn't as heavily flawed as VBrawl was, and to improve from there.
And while your opinion may differ from mine on what is to be called an improvement, the opinion of the many outweigh the opinion of the few, and in this case, your opinion belongs to the few.

But you are in your right to have an opinion about it and feel that it should be different.
What should be noted however is that the backroom doesn't operate on a one-tracked mindset that Melee was perfect, Brawl was [censored], and that it should have been a 1:1 clone of Melee + more characters.
It's not only wrong, but absurd as well to the point it's just mind-boggling to read.

[Velen]

Played Project:M earlier at the student lounge at the community college campus. The reviews from two of the guys playing were -and, I quote- "This is complete bull[censored]." They were both Melee players at one point...I'll get to why in a second, but I have a bug to report.

- On Fountain of Dreams, after Fox summoned the Landmaster, it suddenly shot up into the air and off-screen without warning, and ended with Fox getting stocked in the upper right corner of the screen. In another instance, the Landmaster was unable to fly up despite the platforms being semi-solid.

Onto why they called it bull[censored]. For some reason, there was input lag between pressing a button on the controller, even though there should not have been, but I'm going to chalk that up to the TV being the culprit.

Another problem they were having was that for some reason, the controllers in controller ports 1 and (I think) 3 were being generally unresponsive. They would press the jump button and nothing would happen, including on the second jump, and apparently things in general weren't working. I would chalk this up to the controllers, but I can't be sure.

We were using the Homebrew Full-Set.

[LC-DDM]

Yeah out of curiosity, will there be a download of earlier builds? Curious.

[♤♡◇♧]

@Velen
Using HD and widescreen TVs tend to produce some display lag, which can throw people off in terms of timing and input.

And while it seems that the Landmaster is indeed bugged (and will have to be fixed in a future release), the controller port issue however could be caused due to the Wii not properly reading certain files from the SD card, which can be fixed by reformatting the SD card (be sure to back up your files though).
Eight out ten times it fixes such problems.

@LC-DDM
I'm not sure, though if the demand for it is high enough, it could potentially be made available in the future.

[K+ ~ Tanuki God]

I'm pretty sure I still have 2.1
(Mirror anyone?)

[Shadic]

Why would you want a version other than 2.5b, though? It's mechanically worse, less polished, and has less characters.

I was playing as Ganondorf, against someone playing Dedede, and someone playing Luigi. I was at around 50-70%. Dedede sends me sailing through the air with his hammer, near the center of the stage, instead of recovering, I end up spiraling all the way to the blast zone below the stage, and I'm not even that far away from the ledge. If it were Brawl, I would've been able to recover and grab the ledge with his Up-B. That didn't happen due to the lack of hitstun canceling in Project:M.

If you were killed from the center of the stage as Ganondorf at mid-percent, you were doing something wrong. Something very, very wrong. The thing that first comes to mind would be the fact that you can't airdodge out of tumble in Project M, but uh... You would have had well over two seconds to just... Jump?

[Velen]

Why would you want a version other than 2.5b, though? It's mechanically worse, less polished, and has less characters.
If you were killed from the center of the stage as Ganondorf at mid-percent, you were doing something wrong. Something very, very wrong. The thing that first comes to mind would be the fact that you can't airdodge out of tumble in Project M, but uh... You would have had well over two seconds to just... Jump?

I don't think you understand. I literally could not do anything as I spiraled like a football in a lateral all the way into the pit. I tried jumping. I tried using Up-B. Nothing.