[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Eternal Yoshi]

Sorry, but the only code that was released to public at this time was the input lag removal(NOT WIFI).
Read this post by Magus for more information.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331578

Seems to have enough info for someone like DWOLF to port this thing.

I don't know if the other codes will be posted publicly yet.

[Irinemi]

 

Thoughts on P:M?
I'm loving it. It gets 100x better with each release. Character viability is great, aesthetics are great, controls feel great... I could go on and on. I do agree with not balancing around spacies, but the PMBR should work on balance AFTER every char has a concrete design.

This mod is awesome. Good S*** PMBR.

[Velen]

Thing is, Ganondorf and Falco have been given all the good attributes they had in both Melee and Brawl, and where one attribute fits better in the overall playstyle or not.
That's the reason why even though a lot of Ganon has been changed to Melee stat wise, things like side B and certain animations have not.
Same goes for Falco, but a lot less has been kept from Brawl due to most of his Melee attributes outweighing his Brawl ones.

What about the Top Tiers? That was another one of my big concerns. The fact they would be as good as they were in Melee makes me nervous. Wouldn't that mean they would be as nigh unstoppable as they were in Melee?

Spoilered for size

Fox for example, was the top dog, literally and figuratively in Melee. The majority of the time, if you're a Fox main, anyone who didn't use Fox in response would have a comparatively would have to work with more and more night superhuman efficiency to keep up the lower you go in the tiers. That's why I said that I think making the Top Tiers exactly as they were in Melee for the purpose of balancing, was a bad idea.

To, me, that's slant balancing. Basically you have the Top Tiers, who have the most weight because they are the highest on the list. Everyone in the S-Tier is a Top Tier character. There are -as of way late 2010- four characters in S-Tier. These four characters outweigh the rest of the characters on the proverbial "scale". The rest of the characters, as they are now, are having things added and subtracted to them in order for the scale to become perfectly balanced. The problem is, the Top Tiers, who are on the other side of scale, have had (as far as I am aware, I'm not Melee Veteran, and I didn't play Brawl Competitively) little to no change in their "weight". With the addition of Brawl Characters, and the subtraction of those no longer there, things change, sure, but all the same, that's basically what I think the Project:M Team is doing.

In other words. It's not true balancing. It's only fattening up whoever isn't in S-Tier as needed.

That's all.

EDIT: Adding more...

Another thing that bothered me that is mentioned in a few of the character's profiles is the fact that some characters had their animations changed back to their Melee incarnations... That seems like as though you tried to regress an already finished, fully illustrated picture to it's sketched form. Why bother?

The animations are namely an aesthetic thing, while they define the attacks the characters do, changing them back to their Melee forms shouldn't be a requirement. It seems like a poor choice in artistic taste when at least two or more people on your team have the ability to create amazing animations, only to waste them on perfectly restoring the animations to their Melee appearance. Why bother? Why not improve upon the Brawl ones by making them better rather than regressing them to their Melee forms? It seems to give off the feel of a mindset where "The animation is from Melee, so it is better!" This isn't the case with all the animations of the characters who have had  animations restored to Melee form, I know, but still.

[Battleon469]

for god sake velen can you a talk a little more positive? Project M has more then clones.... and stuff like that...

[LC-DDM]

for god sake velen can you a talk a little more positive? Project M has more then clones.... and stuff like that...

Last I checked the thread was open. Don't expect everyone to praise it.

[_Data_Drain_]

for god sake velen can you a talk a little more positive? Project M has more then clones.... and stuff like that...

Last I checked the thread was open. Don't expect everyone to praise it.

Indeed... Everyone has a right to their opinion. Battleon469, you have your opinion. Velen has his... Try to be respectful to that.

[♤♡◇♧]

First of all, people seem to assume that the top tier consists of borderline broken and (almost) unbeatable characters.
That's simply not true, as they are beatable in a higher degree than MK is in VBrawl.
And especially in Project M, where characters are not only buffed, but where also some if not most of them recieved tools to counter the shenanigans the top tier can throw out.

As for the animations, sometimes, the Melee animations are just better, and also contribute to the characters stats in terms of visual indication.
It has nothing to do with lacking creativity or regressing, but with balancing and matching the visuals with a characters stats (read: the overall feel of a character).

[SiLeNtDo0m]

What about the Top Tiers? That was another one of my big concerns. The fact they would be as good as they were in Melee makes me nervous. Wouldn't that mean they would be as nigh unstoppable as they were in Melee?

No because every other character has been improved.  It's that simple.  There are more characters that can fare well against them and counter them.

Spoilered for size

Fox for example, was the top dog, literally and figuratively in Melee. The majority of the time, if you're a Fox main, anyone who didn't use Fox in response would have a comparatively would have to work with more and more night superhuman efficiency to keep up the lower you go in the tiers. That's why I said that I think making the Top Tiers exactly as they were in Melee for the purpose of balancing, was a bad idea.

To, me, that's slant balancing. Basically you have the Top Tiers, who have the most weight because they are the highest on the list. Everyone in the S-Tier is a Top Tier character. There are -as of way late 2010- four characters in S-Tier. These four characters outweigh the rest of the characters on the proverbial "scale". The rest of the characters, as they are now, are having things added and subtracted to them in order for the scale to become perfectly balanced. The problem is, the Top Tiers, who are on the other side of scale, have had (as far as I am aware, I'm not Melee Veteran, and I didn't play Brawl Competitively) little to no change in their "weight". With the addition of Brawl Characters, and the subtraction of those no longer there, things change, sure, but all the same, that's basically what I think the Project:M Team is doing.

In other words. It's not true balancing. It's only fattening up whoever isn't in S-Tier as needed.

You know I do find it somewhat amusing how you seem to think you have such a broad idea on how balancing a game works when you yourself just admitted that 1) you're not a competitive player of any sort and 2) you don't actually design Smash games yourself.  Honestly you're making it seem as though we're incompetent developers.  As though we don't know the games that we're redesigning.  That is not the case.  

First off, let me just highlight the fact that this first and foremost is a competitive mod.  Despite the fact that Project:M can appeal to many, it primarily appeals to competitive Melee players.  The top tiers of Melee are what defined the metagame.  They are whom these competitive players use and enjoy the most and they're a huge component of what made Melee the fast paced game it is.  As a result changing them whilst we're still developing the rest of the characters and while the metagame is still developing would only alienate members of our primary target audience.  

Also to address your end point, tier lists don't necessarily reflect the balance of the game.  Tier lists reflect tournament results.  There is always going to be a top tier and a bottom tier.  What defines balance is how much worse the bottom tiers are comparative to the top tiers.  Everybody in P:M is about as good as the top 7 or 8 characters of Melee at the moment, and pretty much all are viable tournament choices.  Of course, we still need to observe how 2.5's metagame develops and see how each character fares but at the moment we're in a pretty good position.  

Another thing that bothered me that is mentioned in a few of the character's profiles is the fact that some characters had their animations changed back to their Melee incarnations... That seems like as though you tried to regress an already finished, fully illustrated picture to it's sketched form. Why bother?

animations are namely an aesthetic thing, while they define the attacks the characters do, changing them back to their Melee forms shouldn't be a requirement. It seems like a poor choice in artistic taste when at least two or more people on your team have the ability to create amazing animations, only to waste them on perfectly restoring the animations to their Melee appearance. Why bother? Why not improve upon the Brawl ones by making them better rather than regressing them to their Melee forms? It seems to give off the feel of a mindset where "The animation is from Melee, so it is better!" This isn't the case with all the animations of the characters who have had  animations restored to Melee form, I know, but still.

This right here is completely wrong.  Laughably so infact.  Animations are changed back to their Melee incarnations for various characters because it affects positions and timings of hitboxes as well as interrupts for attacks.  Most importantly, they're remade to capture the essence of the character from Melee.  They're not remade because they're better or worse than Brawl's animations (well, that's debatable), therefore stating it's a "regression" is incorrect.  Heck if anything it's a very primitive way of thinking of it.  

Not to mention there are far more custom animations in the codeset than remade ones.    

You know what Velen I'm curious, just how much of P:M have you actually played?  I would really like to know.

EDIT: ds22 basically said what I was saying but more concise.

[Velen]

Consider my concerns about those things alleviated then. That's just how it seemed to me.

I have not played P:M yet, but that's mainly cause I'm waiting for the first full release, more than anything else. When all characters will be playable. I know that's a long ways away, but I would rather have the full package than just a part of it.

Ease of installation is another concern for me. I don't have USB Gecko, I've never been able to play a full match of Brawl using Riivo (it would freeze for reasons I couldn't discern), and I can't use Dolphin for [censored] cause it won't run on my lappy.

[_Data_Drain_]

Consider my concerns about those things alleviated then. That's just how it seemed to me.

I have not played P:M yet, but that's mainly cause I'm waiting for the first full release, more than anything else. When all characters will be playable. I know that's a long ways away, but I would rather have the full package than just a part of it.

Ease of installation is another concern for me. I don't have USB Gecko, I've never been able to play a full match of Brawl using Riivo (it would freeze for reasons I couldn't discern), and I can't use Dolphin for [censored] cause it won't run on my lappy.

Well you know...

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Gecko

You could use this. Before USB Loading, this is what I used... Sure, you won't be able to use sound packs. But it is more stable then Riivolution.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah Gecko OS is more stable(You don't need a USB Gecko for it), and we fixed a Riivo bug in 2.5b so there should be a lot less freezing.

[Hero ©]

I have a problem..

Whenever I choose Ivysaur or Squirtle, it makes the Wii stop reading the disc.

I'm using Riivolution and have absolutely no mods over it. Anyone know a way to fix this?

[_Data_Drain_]

I have a problem..

Whenever I choose Ivysaur or Squirtle, it makes the Wii stop reading the disc.

I'm using Riivolution and have absolutely no mods over it. Anyone know a way to fix this?

Erm... USB-Load it? Sounds like your disk is scratched, or your disk lens is dying.

[Hero ©]

When using USB Loader, it freezes in 2-4 minutes in-game.

Can't be disk lens because it plays all other original/copied discs perfectly. My original disc is not even that scratched.

[BlueBrain]

is there a way to be able to actually play this through USB loading?
cuz i cant get past a black screen...

like, what loader do you use, what specific settings...