[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Battleon469]

yeah no what so ever Pokemon trainer NEVER EVER works for me and same for Project M it makes me sad as I reallly want to use that fancy solar beam with Ivysaur but it just darn freezes.... I hate it.... and also can't use Gecko because I don't have a SD card that is smaller than 4GB.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Since my lens is not reading dual layer discs, I use Configurable USB loader to load Brawl mods and PM.

[SwingSet]

Just at of curiosity... Does anyone else get Zero Suit Samus to T-pose when you hit some with her Jump-Dow-A?

[K+ ~ Tanuki God]

I haven't had it happen... weird...

[Hero ©]

Well, I managed to fix my problem from the previous page.

Turns out that their default colors makes the Wii stop reading the disc...which is pretty dumb.

Just at of curiosity... Does anyone else get Zero Suit Samus to T-pose when you hit some with her Jump-Dow-A?

Nope.

Try re-adding the original files again.

[Velen]

Guess who got to play Project:M today?

So far, things look and feel nice but some of the characters just feel and play in too clunky a manner for my taste.

Then there's the Hitstun. The [censored] hitstun.

The hit stun is ridiculous. Some characters literally, when hit at a certain percentage, will be entirely unable to recover in situations where they would normally be able to. Perfect example is when I played with Ganondorf. He got hit an an attack at one point, and he was sent reeling off the stage beyond the point of no return. This has happened with other characters several times too.

It's nice so far, but it really needs some fine-tuning.

[_Data_Drain_]

Well, Velen. Not that I would know, since I haven't played P:M, and it's been a long time since I played Melee...

But was the hit stun pretty much like that in Melee? If so... They most likely won't fix it. Since that's how Melee was.

Also, about some characters being clunky... In most fighting games. There's always a character that is. And isn't right for each player. A character to you might not play well. But to another player, the one you like might not suit their tastes.

[Velen]

Well, Velen. Not that I would know, since I haven't played P:M, and it's been a long time since I played Melee...

But was the hit stun pretty much like that in Melee? If so... They most likely won't fix it. Since that's how Melee was.

Also, about some characters being clunky... In most fighting games. There's always a character that is. And isn't right for each player. A character to you might not play well. But to another player, the one you like might not suit their tastes.

Stuff like the hitstun was happening at pretty low percentages. It's way too much. I wasn't even anywhere near the ledge, nor had that much damage, and that happened.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Fun Fact: Hitstun constants in Melee and Brawl are one and the same.

The key difference is that Melee and PM prohibits cancelling hitstun via air dodges/attacks/actions unless there's some sort of external interference.

On a side note, Smash 64's hitstun is quite a bit higher and more ridiculous.

[K+ ~ Tanuki God]

Yeah Smash 64 was inspired by Pinball (Bumpers anyone?) so that makes sense.

[Velen]

Fun Fact: Hitstun constants in Melee and Brawl are one and the same.

The key difference is that Melee and PM prohibits cancelling hitstun via air dodges/attacks/actions unless there's some sort of external interference.

On a side note, Smash 64's hitstun is quite a bit higher and more ridiculous.

I wish they hadn't done that. Some of the character's moves in Brawl could influence their momentum and allow them to survive longer by using said attacks out of hitstun. Now that's gone. Not everyone is as good as Melee tournament-goers were at utilizing DI on hit. Plus, allowing it would add more to each character's ability to survive. It was a step in the right direction to add that feature in Brawl.

I honestly see them regressing the game that way as a case of "it's better this way because Melee." I see it as unfair for the player to have to suffer that way. Watching at certain percents as they can literally no longer do anything to help their character keep from falling down to the blast zone. That's ridiculous IMO. Air Dodges I can understand, but not allowing a character to attack at all during the entire duration of the hitstun is just...dumb.

It's basically like "I hit you, now watch yourself die, foolish mortal".

This can even happen in situations where a character would normally be able to recover from that in Brawl. I think that's something Brawl did right.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Sounds like you're going through an adjustment phase.
Also the decisions we made on that was more than the fact that it was like that in Melee.

On a side note, the reason certain characters feel different is llikely because of how inputs are handled.

PM has no 10 frame buffer like Brawl, and also doesn't have Brawl's input lag of 0-2 frames, so characters WILL SEEM TO control awkwardly for the first few moments until you adjust to the lack of buffer and input lag.

[Velen]

Sounds like you're going through an adjustment phase.
Also the decisions we made on that was more than the fact that it was like that in Melee.

On a side note, the reason certain characters feel different is llikely because of how inputs are handled.

PM has no 10 frame buffer like Brawl, and also doesn't have Brawl's input lag of 0-2 frames, so characters WILL SEEM TO control awkwardly for the first few moments until you adjust to the lack of buffer and input lag.

It has nothing to do with adjustment, EY. I don't actively play Project:M. Today was the first time I've played it. I've also played Melee before.

-and I believe that making the hitstun that way is unfair to the player in situations where in Brawl, they would've normally be able to recover. That was a step forward in gameplay, making the way it was in Brawl, where some moves can influence their momentum while in-flight out of hitstun after a certain amount of time to increase their ability to survive when used, rather than having to wait the entire duration of the hitstun, when it's already too late to recover. Lucario's Brawl version of his D-Air is a perfect example of this, and so is Bowser's F-Air.

So what exactly beyond the fact that it was that way in Melee is the reason for making that way? I see no reason to make it that way other than "it was that way in Melee, therefore it must be that way" because the Project M team is prominently made up of Melee veterans, whom I bet weren't too happy with the changes in Brawl.

So yes. I am basically saying you guys made it that way on preference rather than anything actually concrete. Cause it sure seems that way.

Don't take this the wrong way. I had fun today, playing Project:M, but all the same, the hitstun as it is, is ridiculously punishing, the guy sitting next to me who was playing agreed.

[♤♡◇♧]

The change was made to focus more on combos and kills, and less on recovering, thereby contributing to a faster paced gameplay.
It has nothing to do with 'regressing back to Melee', as it is more to help the game feel less stalling in terms of kills and the like.
So you may think Brawl's ability to cancel hitstun was a step forward, but for a game that tries to emulate the core of Melee's gameplay, it wasn't, and therefore the option was removed.

Also as a side note, we not only have Melee players in our backroom, but we also have actual Brawl players helping on Project M, so the notion that we would be an all exclusive club of Melee veterans is just plain wrong.

[Velen]

There's the key phrase: "A game that tries to emulate the core of Melee's gameplay." You just contradicted yourself right there, whether you will deny it or not. In order to make the game emulate the core of Melee's gameplay, you have to regress the game's engine back to Melee features. Ergo, the notion that it has nothing to do with "regressing back to Melee" is wrong.

I think you intentionally misconstrued the meaning of my words as well. There's a difference between "Melee players" and "Melee veterans", DS, and I believe the majority, if not all of you are the latter phrasing.

After playing Project:M yesterday, I can already tell you that you guys have greatly succeeded in that in your goal. However, the notion that putting less focus on recovering contributes to faster paced gameplay is preposterous and plain wrong. Recovering is a large part of surviving in Smash, and it has been since SSB64. If your definition of faster gameplay is:

"Defeating your opponents will be faster since the hitstun will eventually make it impossible for them to recover in a situation where a character would normally be able to do so."

-only then would that suffice. After playing Project:M I can tell you there is no correlation between fast gameplay and less focus on recovering. Because as soon as it got down to two people, gameplay slowed way down. It felt just like we were playing Brawl again.

Sorry to burst your bubble.