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Author Topic: The Real Reason the Community is Dying.  (Read 67275 times)
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    « Reply #75 on: March 09, 2015, 07:47:00 PM »


    I'm surprised this thread is still up. Why is it even?
    Because somebody bumped it with a non-important post.
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    « Reply #76 on: March 09, 2015, 07:48:55 PM »


    Can it die now? I don't see a reason for it to be here anymore.
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    « Reply #77 on: March 09, 2015, 07:55:15 PM »


    Ironically, your vault consists mainly of recolors. Tongue

    Hahahaha, exactly man, I'm not being adamant nor modest about my work, and I know it isn't the worst, but far from the best. That's just the way I was when I was active. I liked the game for what it already offered, but the palette choices just didn't do it for me, so I made my own whenever I got an idea or I picked up a character I liked using. Then I got into the UTCP with Minty/Mars/Maritime for a while. Then I started doing recolors and background swaps for stages, and then importing from other games and doing some parts from scratch, and finally got into the Smash 3 project by redoing Brawl's textures from the ground up into a different style.

    We all have our different paths and ways of doing things, but in the end, we do things because they make us happy, and we enjoy spending time doing something we like, especially if others end up liking something you make, and it fuels the fire for you to move onto and make bigger and better things.
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    « Reply #78 on: March 09, 2015, 07:57:53 PM »


    Notice how I didn't say there's anything wrong with recolors Smiley
    I only was pointing out the irony, because irony can be funny in a non-hurtful way. Kirby Dance

    Post Merge: March 09, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
    In fact, my Vault consists of ONLY recolors; even my Smash 4 Kirby and Smash 4 Luigi are recolors! Lolz Tongue
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    « Reply #79 on: March 10, 2015, 02:51:01 PM »


    Can it die now? I don't see a reason for it to be here anymore.
    Then don't look at it.
    Notice how I didn't say there's anything wrong with recolors Smiley
    I only was pointing out the irony, because irony can be funny in a non-hurtful way. Kirby Dance

    Post Merge: March 09, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
    In fact, my Vault consists of ONLY recolors; even my Smash 4 Kirby and Smash 4 Luigi are recolors! Lolz Tongue
    Most "recolors" these days are just hue changes. Simple sliding of the hue bar in photoshop. Real recolors take more time than that. Quality ones take more shading to get the color changes to look well and to keep detail int he original texture. They require color palettes that actually flow together, and not just thrown on there.

    Your recolors, windhunter, are an example of these. A lot of them look like lazy hue changes. No shading edits. No thought our palettes. It is easy to tell rushed recolors from you good ones. It takes a lot more practice and time to make quality recolors than simple ones.
    « Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 02:57:32 PM by Nαnobuds » Logged

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    « Reply #80 on: March 10, 2015, 05:26:56 PM »


    I agree with all of this, people are too lazy now, people are too rude to each other, etc. I knew that there was more to this than Smash 3DS & Smash Wii U being out and I'm glad that I was right about that...sorta...I'm glad that it's not just the new Smash Bros games being out but at the same time it is upsetting how the community currently is. Course I can't say I'm the nicest guy and take every requests because I don't. There are a bunch of times where I could've been nicer, or I phrased my wording incorrectly so it came off as mean or whatever. Tongue
    One of the key factors to people not bothering to learn how to do new things is that they just don't have the drive to learn. I remember back when I first learned model importing, what kept me focused on learning how to model import was the drive to make cool imports that I either thought people wouldn't make or make better versions of existing ones (whether it's the existing one had a legitimately bad rig or the model/textures were inaccurate, etc). It was that feeling of knowing I was learning how to create something awesome that kept me going. Hell that exact same drive is what kept me focused on learning how to make player models for Garry's Mod. Lots of people here either don't have that drive, or it's not strong enough for them to stick with learning how to do something.
    Another problem is, like Velen mentioned, that experienced hackers are viewing newbie hacks with the same standards they view hacks from experienced hackers. A few examples are detailed rigging (like it blends smoothly and uses bones that most people overlook like the WaistNb bone) as apposed to the rig just looking clean and not having vertices move all over the place. Models having a bunch of different spec-maps & shine effects as apposed to the model using the right textures to begin with. A very common critic is normals/smoothness. Using the Weld & Smooth modifiers in 3ds Max is simple so a newbie just might not know those exist (thanks Nano for telling me to use the Weld modifier way back when I imported Sunshine Mario) but editing normals to make different polygons look seamless isn't as simple/easy of a task (depending on how perfect you want to get with it) but a decent amount of less experienced hackers get reminded about the normals being perfect in rude ways. Because of newbies being held to the same standards, they begin to feel like nothing they can make is good enough so they stop trying to learn because they think it won't make a difference.
    One problem that a lot of experienced hackers have (myself included) is that we forget how difficult certain things are for newbies because we've done them so many times, and thus seems like an incredibly simple thing for us. Course I'm not saying that there aren't simple things that newbies don't know, folder paths for example are the easiest of things besides downloading the actual hacks. However, it's memorizing the folder paths that is the problem, some are easy to figure out like the Mario files go in the "mario" folder but because of how a lot of files are named, there are still files that are hard to find (the Adventure Level files for example *shudders*) or aren't as obvious, like where to put the CSS images.
    There are times when newbies should pointed towards a tutorial, usually if they're starting from scratch like how to import a model. There's so much info to explain that showing them a tutorial is simpler and easier. If it's something specific then you explain what to do. Like for example, how to make a texture transparent. It's simply replacing the material and giving it another shader as apposed to something like "how to give a character a transformation like Super Saiyan" or something that has an existing tutorial that works. Not exactly sure if a tutorial for giving someone a transformation exists but it was just an example.
    While I'm not a newbie at importing characters & stages into Brawl, I'm still a newbie at some other things related to Brawl and then just other game hacking/modding in general. I tried to get into GoldenEye 007/Perfect Dark hacking, but because there weren't many tutorials, and almost all the existing ones are years old & outdated, I couldn't really learn anything. Another thing was that all the experienced modders were so far above me that things that I assume were simple to them either made no sense to me or I couldn't follow what they said due to a lack of visual aids. That is another thing, a good amount of tutorials would benefit from pictures and stuff, which could be another reason why newbies don't get very. They can't find certain things or don't know what something should look like.
    I know this is a big post, but I'm (slightly) more hopeful I'll get friendly response since one of the problems with the community is people being mean/rude to each other. One of the reasons I still bother to post things on the WIP Workshop is because there's usually at least one person who even acknowledges the pictures...which is one other thing that happens to newbies: Getting ignored when they're showing something off or asking about something. Getting ignored when you're trying to learn something new severally hurts one's motivation.
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    I make YouTube videos, SM64 hacks, Brawl Hacks (obviously), NSMBW hacks, and GoldenEye 007 Mods. I also have a short attention span and tend to switch around a lot and put things on hold. But when I do finish things, 95% of the time I gave 120% effort, the other 5% of the time I give 100% effort.

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    « Reply #81 on: March 10, 2015, 07:26:26 PM »


    You worked so much on your post I had to say something.  Tongue
    When I was learning how to hack psas, I've asked for help a few times and like half of my questions were never answered. You can see that by my first posts on those forums. The same still happening today with many newcomers. After those years here, I understood that BJ is right when he says that, in most cases, is not worth helping others, firstly because people tend to ask before they even try doing it themselves, you can see that by the kind of questions asked, and it's already a sign they hardly will put effort in learning things. In my case, that's enough to not want to try helping that person. Sometimes, you write a bunch of explanations, and the person never come back again to relate if it worked or not, or just end up asking you to do it for him/her, but then the person don't learn, and sooner or later will come back with more questions, maybe even with the same doubt.
    That may be selfish but it's how I feel. It's the reason I usually don't reply people that knows nothing. Because... c'mon. Some people ask how to change a jab's damage. That's just a single number to change. The fact they never used psa or brawlbox before is no excuse for that, because with a minimal effort, it will take you 5 mins to find out how to do it, but instead of losing 5 mins, they would rather ask on the boards and wait from hours to days for some reply. And still, most of my posts have been on the A/A help section helping others, because I know some people are trying hard to improve their work, and there are nasty tricks in psa that would take ages to them to figure out by themselves. Most people don't have the patience I had to figure out things without help, but if they show a little they want to learn, I help.

    My point with this is that the community has always been like this towards newbies. People don't trust newbies' work. When I posted my final smashes, which is the first thing I tried to share, my thread died without replies because "who is mortimer? who cares. more sephiroth plx". That keeps happening all the time around here. I've worked on them for 2 years before I mentioned, and that's how I learned 80% of what I know now. Now sometimes, people come and ask for the final smashes. I honestly don't know if I feel happy, disappointed or angry with that. A bit of all, maybe. But things evolved now, and there are more possibilities, so people that join now want to do all of this right away, but the amount of things they must learn is too overwhelming and they give up. Fact is, you can't try depending on others. You gotta do things like you're the only person in the world that can do it, and do your best. If you start asking too much for help, people tend to stay away from you, as you show you're not trying. We're not on the times when you could get 2000+ downloads with a texture recolor anymore.

    I agree that experienced hackers tend to be harsh with newbies. But you have to say the truth. I see dozens of people praising animations, saying they are excellent and awesome, when they clearly are not. If you keep praising a bad work, the person will never try to improve. So far, since 2010, I only downloaded 4 psas that I use, 3 of them I wouldn't download if they were released today because the standards are higher. You don't need to be rude, but you gotta criticize. If the person feels offended because you're saying the truth, well, the person gotta deal with it somehow. Just because that work is the best thing you ever did doesn't mean it's good afterall.

    Conclusion of all of this? My opinion: there's NOTHING you can do to make the community be what it was, because it never changed. A bunch of bright colors on the board won't change what people already is. In rude words, this is natural selection. Those who are not strong enough to stay here will be forgotten. If the community is not strong enough to survive this world, it will be extinguished. Only the strong survive the path of knowledge.
    It's the reason of why I don't post much outside my thread. I've learned to not let myself get hyped with anything, because I never know if the person will overcome the challenge, or the challenge will overcome the person.

    And, huh... don't get offended by my reply. It's just my opinion, afterall.  Smiley
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    StupidMarioFan1
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    « Reply #82 on: March 10, 2015, 07:50:36 PM »


    You're completely right about sometimes just having to say the truth, there is a difference between criticizing and just saying something is bad. That difference is explaining why it's bad, that way the person can then try to correct their mistakes. Sadly, the number of people who understand the difference is outnumbered by those who don't understand it. Course there are times where someone is criticizing a work but the way they phrased their critic comes off as rude or a bit too harsh.
    You're also right about times have changed, I still remember back in 2011 where model imports were still relatively new and so people made a bigger deal out of it. Vertex hacking was also still relatively popular, don't know if it was considered big at that point because I'm pretty sure I got into Brawl Hacking right in the middle of the transition from Vertexing to Importing, infact I had found it easier to do "vertex" hacks via importing a modified Brawl model as apposed to using the standard methods. People weren't as harsh as they are now when it comes to imports because it wasn't quite as common.
    One benefit of this not being the "texture recolor = tons of downloads" era is that people don't make a big deal out of recolors anymore, unfortunately that doesn't stop all the hacks though. I totally understand why newbies go that route because it's simple and it's a good place to start, but it does annoy me when someone makes a recolor and is like "I've never seen this one before" and you just look at the other recolors for that character and find either the exact same recolor, or 95% the same recolor in the first 3 pages. Despise the ones that just barely change the colors, especially when it's a Shadow recolor that had been posted by 50 other people. Tongue It's dumb when the recolor barely looks different, and it's dumb when someone makes a recolor that you can find just be looking at the first few pages of a character. More lenient on recolors that I've seen before, but it had been like a month or something since I last saw, so you would've had to have looked through 10 or something pages. That's understandable, few people are going to look through tons of pages to see if their idea of a recolor had already been done.
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    I make YouTube videos, SM64 hacks, Brawl Hacks (obviously), NSMBW hacks, and GoldenEye 007 Mods. I also have a short attention span and tend to switch around a lot and put things on hold. But when I do finish things, 95% of the time I gave 120% effort, the other 5% of the time I give 100% effort.

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    « Reply #83 on: March 10, 2015, 07:52:03 PM »


    And, huh... don't get offended by my reply. It's just my opinion, afterall. Smiley

    Remember... you can't have opinions on the internet. Just some helpful advice.

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    « Reply #84 on: March 10, 2015, 07:59:48 PM »


    The reason for the change of colors would be to change the overall visual feel of the forum, not so much the people on it. That change would have to come from people themselves, but changing the look and feel of it can help.

    Colors affect people psychologically. As it stands the forum has an overwhelming amount of black and grey in it with a very small spattering of color in places. Changing the overall palette can do good things for the forum in the long run.
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    « Reply #85 on: March 10, 2015, 08:08:40 PM »


    Oh you meant that literally, I thought it meant something else, like change how everyone reacted. Anyways changing the color scheme could help, course then again...how long has the forums been black & grey/has it always been black & grey? lol
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    I make YouTube videos, SM64 hacks, Brawl Hacks (obviously), NSMBW hacks, and GoldenEye 007 Mods. I also have a short attention span and tend to switch around a lot and put things on hold. But when I do finish things, 95% of the time I gave 120% effort, the other 5% of the time I give 100% effort.

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    « Reply #86 on: March 11, 2015, 12:26:25 PM »


    @StupidMarioFan1
    I know what you mean about being rude.  Smiley  I was just trying to point a possible cause of why some people do that. I also don't agree with being too harsh towards newbies, because you will just make them feel unconfortable.
    I was here when importing started, and I got a headache of just thinking of what I would have to learn (considering 3ds knowledge) to do that. Surely people were less harsh. After living with only vertex edits, model importing was a dream. Personally, I like more vertex edits than models, because I hate having an imported model over Mario with Mario's voice and attacks. Not to mention the rigging issues you have by not using the properly skeleton. The few times I downloaded them, I used 1 or two times and never again. With vertex edits, they look like the original character with a very different alt recolor.
    It may be dumb, but I don't mind people uploading things that have been uploaded before. Mostly because, like you said, there are too many pages, many with several hacks with broken links. Besides, I think you gotta do here what you like doing, and not do things people would like to get. As long as new things keep comming, the community will live, even with its usual troubles.


    Remember... you can't have opinions on the internet. Just some helpful advice.
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    Of course. Smiley I didn't get it.



    The reason for the change of colors would be to change the overall visual feel of the forum, not so much the people on it. That change would have to come from people themselves, but changing the look and feel of it can help.

    Colors affect people psychologically. As it stands the forum has an overwhelming amount of black and grey in it with a very small spattering of color in places. Changing the overall palette can do good things for the forum in the long run.

    I hope you're right, really. If somehow colors manage to make people more comprehensive, it's an improvement. But I don't believe it will happen. I like the way it is now, and I don't feel like it affects my mood or judgement in anyway. Well, arguing about preferences is pointless. Some will like, some won't. End of story.



    When i learned how to make textures in 2011, i wasnt a little bug that existed here, i was at smash elite hackers or something like that, my hacks were hosted by megaupload, 1 year and guess what? Kicked off cuz of broken download link. Now, i went to a different hacking site for 2 years, kicked off and came here. Was a noob here, then started asking if somebody could rig KTH tails over tails over MK psa then i got disrespectful replies so i deleted the topic, made some texture hacks (which take me about 3 whole days) tried doing a request, disrespectful replies, delete, made even MORE time cosuming hacks, requested a shadow psa, got some really stupid suggestions like "SHEDOW SHULD BE FASTR THEN EVRY1" said no, started calling me a ass, said its not a debate thread, they say theyre not debating, left my topic.

    Here is a fact. People who know how to do those things are people who tried until they learned because they wanted to do something. So they are usually busy with their own projects and don't want to use their time working for others. Very few people take requests. It's one more reason of why i think people gotta learn everything they want to do. Like, if you want to do a ninja psa, should you wait for someone upload a ninja model, so you can start? No. You should find a model and learn how to import it yourself. You won't just solve the problem, but will learn how to import models, and believe me, that opens a lot of possibilities in brawl hacking.


    Another thing I forgot to mention in my last post. I think people here are too impulsive. Before starting working on something, they really should know if they really want to do that. I see people with dozens of unfinished projects, and they keep switching between them every week and never finish anything. After a year, half of those projects are either cancelled or given to someone else to finish. It's not a surprise of why we have so few psas released nowadays. No problem if it will take a year, two or more, to finish it. But FINISH it.
    For example, Mr. Misfortune had asked me to use my psa in his brawl pack. He worked on his project for two months, and as soon as he got the new smash bros, he gave up everything and never even logged again on the vault. Those kind of things just create disappointments and hype people for nothing.
    And I'm not saying you should work in 1 single thing until you finish it. We always get tired and need to change things sometimes, but be sure that the dozens of projects you're doing is what you really want.


     
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    « Reply #87 on: March 12, 2015, 03:19:46 AM »


    Do also keep in mind that a large portion of our userbase is quite very young, and has always been since pretty much day one. (I suppose that is to be expected when we're talking about Nintendo products?) Not many of us were able to set ourselves into a good work routine when we were 13, or even had acquired any true critical view on our own work.

    Thing is, back in the day, you needed to jump through some crazy ass hoops to make even a basic retexture, so generally people dropped out fast. Those who stayed solidified the community because really, once you had gotten the hang of it, it wasn't that bad.
    Same could be said when we were all doing vertex edits. Now we've all got better tools and projects like P:M have got people easily jump-start projects on their own. "If one project succeeded, why not mine?" It also gives them a base of already-made customizations to start off from.

    Let's be clear, I'm not putting the blame on anyone here. Not on developpers, and not on P:M (for once Tongue). I just think there tends to be a natural dilution of knowledge as a community like this progresses, and what used to be a steep entry step became a nicer slope.
    I feel we didn't have as many of these "newbies don't learn/vets are too elitist" arguments back then, because vets more or less stuck with vets, and newbies stuck with each other. Now there's not as much of a divide, people need to interact with people of different skill levels they aren't used to dealing with, and now look at that, everyone's calling someone else responsible for it all.

    I mean yeah, things haven't been going great in a lot of ways, and there's definitely some room for improvement. Our hosting iissues (and an advertising plan that comes with it...) need to be settled sooner than later, and I've been looking into doing some Tutorial clean-up duty.
    But really, I don't believe the overall "mentality" has got anything to do with it.
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    « Reply #88 on: March 12, 2015, 05:00:15 AM »


    I mean yeah, things haven't been going great in a lot of ways, and there's definitely some room for improvement. Our hosting iissues (and an advertising plan that comes with it...) need to be settled sooner than later, and I've been looking into doing some Tutorial clean-up duty.
    But really, I don't believe the overall "mentality" has got anything to do with it.

    Yeah dude, what's up with the hosting thing?

    The community is probably dying because they don't wait the 5 seconds for the site to load and think we're offline/dead already.
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    « Reply #89 on: March 12, 2015, 07:18:57 AM »


    We're a website who receives massive traffic (and the occasional DDoS), yet we essentially have no ad revenue whatsoever, so our meager hosting plan isn't exactly keeping up with the number of visits we get. Chances are we'll need to spend about 5 times more if we want to keep the website stable, and even though we don't exactly mind spending some of our own cash, in this case we're really gonna need a steady money flow to keep the place afloat.

    So yeah, at the moment, we're trying to come up with exactly what kind of ads we want, where, how often, and with which formula (Google AdSense, Project Wonderful, or a mix of both). Thing is, none of us knows much about advertising, and how much would be enough, so progress is very slow.

    If memory serves, our next hosting contract should start next month. Thanks to the most gracious donations we've recently received, we should be able to get a much better plan for this year. What comes after is still a bit uncertain.
    « Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 07:21:33 AM by Miacis » Logged

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