KJP's Throne Room. 09/08/2019: Fighting Alloy Team Pack Update

[Total Voters: 43]

Out of the four members of the Fighting Alloy Team, which one is your favorite?

[Albafika]

About the charge...

Lucario can cancel his Aura Sphere
Squirtle can cancel his Water Gun
R.O.B can cancel his disc thingy
Samus can cancel her Charge Shot

So I don't see how being able to cancel out of charging Razor Wind is so out of the question... Its a long charge move. If you're in a serious fight, chances are you're not going to have the time to charge it anyway so that just makes it semi-useless because you'll never have the opportunity to charge it fully. Best case scenario, you start charging the moment you send the opponent flying and hope they take long enough for you to finish it. Not including multi man fights. Its totally not getting used during those fights. >_>

So, because these 4 you mentioned can cancel it it means it should be like that?

Zelda can't cancel her Side B.
Ike can't cancel his Neutral B.
Marth can't cancel his Neutral B.
Link can't cancel his Neutral B.
Toon Link can't cancel his Neutral B.
Pikachu can't cancel his bolt.

So I don't see why you'd take other characters' cancel-able attacks as base to your suggestion, really.

Also, for a person comparing the character with the vBrawl roster on 60% of the suggestions, I don't see how you'd also want taunt moves. I just see this all leaning towards an OP moveset.

Fox's Upsmash is a Kill move too and you can combo with it. I believe Wolf's is too.

As a matter of fact, a lot of characters have Up smashes as Kill Moves and they can be combo'd with. Your reason for it not being able to be combo'd with is a bad one. It shouldn't only be useful to use at high percentages. At the very least if they happen to not die from it, you should be able to follow up still. Even Bowser can follow up his up-smash with a combo if it doesn't kill his opponent. At this point, the best way to use Scizor's is to Dash into it to make up for the lack of vertical range. But even thats not the issue... the issue is that it should still be useful at low levels too, and the amount of end lag it has makes it blah until you can kill with it.

Did I miss something here? I mean, is Scizor supposed to be a combo character? All I see in your suggestions is combo here and combo there. Also, Bowser's usmash can combo? Wolf's too? I wonder how that works.

[_Data_Drain_]

Fox's Upsmash is a Kill move too and you can combo with it. I believe Wolf's is too.
I disagree here. Just because a few characters can "combo" with their up smash, doesn't mean that Scizor should too. If you look at his moves, he consists of very fast moves, with end lag. Or moves with a lot of start up, but little end lag...

As a matter of fact, a lot of characters have Up smashes as Kill Moves and they can be combo'd with. Your reason for it not being able to be combo'd with is a bad one. It shouldn't only be useful to use at high percentages. At the very least if they happen to not die from it, you should be able to follow up still. Even Bowser can follow up his up-smash with a combo if it doesn't kill his opponent. At this point, the best way to use Scizor's is to Dash into it to make up for the lack of vertical range. But even thats not the issue... the issue is that it should still be useful at low levels too, and the amount of end lag it has makes it blah until you can kill with it.
What are you talking about? Bowser can't combo with his up smash, just try that on anyone fast. You'll see what I mean. Plus not all kill moves are meant to be used at low percents. Scizor's is fast, and has a large vertical hit box. Meaning he can kill from under platforms. That's it's use.

And why would he not want a Down B air (or down A air)? Did I miss something? Its a move like any other... It wouldn't hurt for it to be... yanno... an another move.
Donkey Kong, and Peach also don't have a down B air. Because the move wouldn't make sense in the air. The charging of down B would be pointless in the air. And the tornado would be broken in the air.

And for the Forward A Air... I get that its a kill move. But that doesn't excuse it for being insanely hard to hit with. I understand making it hard to hit yes, and I'm not even so much complaining about the move, but how hard it is to land because of how the jumps are. Another reason why I suggested 4 smaller jumps instead of 1 long jump and 1 short jump. Its just to hard to connect for it to be a kill move.
Again, try landing it off stage. It kills REALLY quickly off stage, low 50s even.

About the charge...

Lucario can cancel his Aura Sphere
Squirtle can cancel his Water Gun
R.O.B can cancel his disc thingy
Samus can cancel her Charge Shot

So I don't see how being able to cancel out of charging Razor Wind is so out of the question... Its a long charge move. If you're in a serious fight, chances are you're not going to have the time to charge it anyway so that just makes it semi-useless because you'll never have the opportunity to charge it fully. Best case scenario, you start charging the moment you send the opponent flying and hope they take long enough for you to finish it. Not including multi man fights. Its totally not getting used during those fights. >_>
And? Those moves don't deal 40% damage, with super armor, and suction. Making it hard to DI out of. Plus, you have a good chance of getting it charged if you star KO your foe. And charge as soon as they start flying. It should be hard to get, since the move is very powerful.

The forward smash already looks like X-Scissor imo...  And I like the Down Smash. Its not a kill move, and its good for combos. And I do agree with you that custom animations for the Nutral Air and back air would be cool but its up to KJP about that one. They work fine IMO.
Well, it could still look more like X-Scissor. Some GFX to make an X shape. And a more suitable animation.

Also, you should try the old version to know what I mean about down smash. Use neutral B, then down smash, it's a nice kill combo. I'd rather have a kill option, then a combo that can be teched.

[Kagemaru]

Bowser: Upsmash, jump, up-A air...

I've done it... thats why I'm saying its possible.

Fox: Upsmash, jump, [insert pretty much anything fox can do in the air]

Wolf: Upsmash, jump, Up-A air

Etc...

It doesn't have to work 100% of the time. But being able to at least peruse at low percentages is a natural thing with pretty much every character. I don't know what Brawl you're playing, but I've known this since the game came out.

Look at that video. 1:05 seconds in KJP starts using Headbut... now, if it didn't have so much end lag, he could have chased Pikachu in the air and kept the pressure on. But as the move is now, the opponent can regain their composure in the air and plan their dodge to your next attack.

And again about the F-A Air, I get that it kills off stage... but... a lot of things kill off stage. Take Final for example... a LOT of things will kill you off stage because of how close 'off stage' is to the 'end' of the stage. The fact of the matter is if its to hard to land, then it fails as a kill move. Even C.Falcon's Knee is easier to land then that move. Its not a bad move, and KJP did well with it. But again... Its pretty much the jumps that make it difficult to land. The start lag is fine, and I was only talking about the landing lag with the move. The move itself is fine.


Me and you seem to differ in opinion when it comes how characters play... Scizor does indeed seem like a fast character. Pokemon wise, he's one of the fastest steel types in the game. Built to hit hard and fast with moderate defense, while still having a huge weakness to certain things.

[Albafika]

Me and you seem to differ in opinion when it comes how characters play... Scizor does indeed seem like a fast character. Pokemon wise, he's one of the fastest steel types in the game. Built to hit hard and fast with moderate defense, while still having a huge weakness to certain things.

Fast character Pokemon wise? Might I recall he's a special kind of pokemon, the one kind that loses "speed" when he evolves to Scizor from Scyther?

Bowser: Upsmash, jump, up-A air...

I've done it... thats why I'm saying its possible.

Fox: Upsmash, jump, [insert pretty much anything fox can do in the air]

Wolf: Upsmash, jump, Up-A air

Etc...

It doesn't have to work 100% of the time. But being able to at least peruse at low percentages is a natural thing with pretty much every character. I don't know what Brawl you're playing, but I've known this since the game came out.

I don't know who are you Brawling that this'd work nearly 100% of the time, but I've known since the game came out this is not supposed to hit.


On a related note. Scizor can't have multiple jumps. He can't fly in-game nor on the amine/movie, so adding him multi jumps would be odd.

[Kagemaru]

By that logic kjp should take out the gliding thing...

The multi jump suggestion was more for the Up-A air move. Think about Metaknight.

And I didn't say it worked 100% of the time. I specifically said it didn't have to work 100% of the time. The point is to be able to pursue... chasing... Scizor is a fast pokemon. Chasing should be part of his... being.

What do you do after you connect with Side-B? You run after their flying body and attempt an air move right? Thats called chasing. 

[_Data_Drain_]

Bowser: Upsmash, jump, up-A air...

I've done it... thats why I'm saying its possible.

Fox: Upsmash, jump, [insert pretty much anything fox can do in the air]

Wolf: Upsmash, jump, Up-A air

Etc...
None of those would work on a good player, or even a level 9 CPU... And if you want to throw your foe into the air, and follow them, use Scizor's up throw, it has no end lag, and even then, the foe can air dodge RIGHT afterward...

It doesn't have to work 100% of the time. But being able to at least peruse at low percentages is a natural thing with pretty much every character. I don't know what Brawl you're playing, but I've known this since the game came out.
I think you're mistaking up smashes with up tilts. Since not many characters have lagless up smashes, not even Meta Knight. And even up tilts don't often combo, there ARE exceptions to this. But still.

Look at that video. 1:05 seconds in KJP starts using Headbut... now, if it didn't have so much end lag, he could have chased Pikachu in the air and kept the pressure on. But as the move is now, the opponent can regain their composure in the air and plan their dodge to your next attack.
Just like any other up smash in the game.

And again about the F-A Air, I get that it kills off stage... but... a lot of things kill off stage. Take Final for example... a LOT of things will kill you off stage because of how close 'off stage' is to the 'end' of the stage. The fact of the matter is if its to hard to land, then it fails as a kill move. Even C.Falcon's Knee is easier to land then that move. Its not a bad move, and KJP did well with it. But again... Its pretty much the jumps that make it difficult to land. The start lag is fine, and I was only talking about the landing lag with the move. The move itself is fine.
Falcon's needs to be sweetspotted. Scizor's just has to hit. Also, on stage, it can kill at about 80%, or 90%. Pretty low for a move like that.

Me and you seem to differ in opinion when it comes how characters play... Scizor does indeed seem like a fast character. Pokemon wise, he's one of the fastest steel types in the game. Built to hit hard and fast with moderate defense, while still having a huge weakness to certain things.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/scizor/moves
Huh, base 65 is fast is it? No, not really.
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/steel.shtml
Also, there's quite a few steel types who are faster.

By that logic kjp should take out the gliding thing...
Scizor can glide, just not fly.

The multi jump suggestion was more for the Up-A air move. Think about Metaknight.
Think about Meta Knight for a balanced character? Meta Knight got banned from tournies...

And I didn't say it worked 100% of the time. I specifically said it didn't have to work 100% of the time. The point is to be able to pursue... chasing... Scizor is a fast pokemon. Chasing should be part of his... being.
Again, no up smash can combo, also, you can chase foes if they aren't at 0% with the move... Do some punishing on the ground with side tilt before using up smash.

What do you do after you connect with Side-B? You run after their flying body and attempt an air move right? Thats called chasing.
Side B is better for killing then chasing...

[SiLeNtDo0m]

Base 65 speed isn't fast at all.  There are plenty of faster steel types.  Even METAGROSS has a faster base speed.

He's portrayed as fast in the few episodes of anime he's in, but the anime just tried to do a "ninja" like characteristic for him for some reason and the anime is wrong for a number of things (one that bugged me throughout the series was the fact that Fire Spin was frequently regarded as one of the most powerful Fire moves when in the games it's garbage).  

Primarily, Scizor isn't a fast Pokemon.  It's a somewhat slow one with ways of increasing its speed with Agility, Quick Attack and Bullet Punch.  Scizor by nature is a technical Pokemon, one designed for punishing and revenge killing.  It's brutally high Attack stat combined with its Technician ability and STAB priority moves were what made him so good.

And giving Scizor a multi jump is also a bad idea because it would affect so many things.  It would needlessly unbalance both his overall mobility and recovery.  

I really don't think Scizor should be a character for chasing in this game.  A fundamental base for his moveset has already been established.  He brings foes to him and punishes the foes mistakes which is not only a more interesting playstyle in general for Brawl, but also makes sense for what Scizor is.

[Albafika]

I liked the idle pose in

this video

more than the actual one. <.< That was Falco's, right?

[SiLeNtDo0m]

I liked the idle pose in this video more than the actual one. <.< That was Falco's, right?

Aye it's Falco's one.  If only the claws were rigged so they could be opened and closed.  Then an

idle animation like this one

could be made

[_Data_Drain_]

Base 65 speed isn't fast at all.  There are plenty of faster steel types.  Even METAGROSS has a faster base speed.

He's portrayed as fast in the few episodes of anime he's in, but the anime just tried to do a "ninja" like characteristic for him for some reason and the anime is wrong for a number of things (one that bugged me throughout the series was the fact that Fire Spin was frequently regarded as one of the most powerful Fire moves when in the games it's garbage).  

Primarily, Scizor isn't a fast Pokemon.  It's a somewhat slow one with ways of increasing its speed with Agility, Quick Attack and Bullet Punch.  Scizor by nature is a technical Pokemon, one designed for punishing and revenge killing.  It's brutally high Attack stat combined with its Technician ability and STAB priority moves were what made him so good.

And giving Scizor a multi jump is also a bad idea because it would affect so many things.  It would needlessly unbalance both his overall mobility and recovery.  

I really don't think Scizor should be a character for chasing in this game.  A fundamental base for his moveset has already been established.  He brings foes to him and punishes the foes mistakes which is not only a more interesting playstyle in general for Brawl, but also makes sense for what Scizor is.

Yeah. And how he is now for the most part supports this play style well. Forward tilt is an excellent punishing tool.

I guess technically he needs to run less fast... But it helps his punishing game.

I liked the idle pose in this video more than the actual one. <_< That was Falco's, right?

Yeah... He needs a better idle pose. What was it in the Pokemon Stadium games? Right now, it looks... Kinda wrong.

Aye it's Falco's one. If only the claws were rigged so they could be opened and closed. Then an idle animation like this one could be made

Eh, something like that could work anyway. It would be better then what he has now, and Falco's.

[Phred]

But yeah, it's a good point.
If his down aerial is going to do the same thing anyways, what's wrong with just letting him charge and/or use Razor Wind in mid-air?

[_Data_Drain_]

But yeah, it's a good point.
If his down aerial is going to do the same thing anyways, what's wrong with just letting him charge and/or use Razor Wind in mid-air?

Again, it would be broken, imagine using it in the air, ff stage... Your foe would have LITTLE chance to recover.

Even with free fall, it could just use it right at the ledge. The foe would get hit, and Scizor would be able to get back. Also charging in the air would be broken, due to.

1. It jumps higher then most characters, so it could get a free charge.

2. In development, it DID have the ability to charge in the air, but when it landed, it would speed up the animation, making it charge almost instantly.

[Kagemaru]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0K0EeL0q4Y&list=UUKpBleZ-rxxtsFayC6StR5w&index=1&feature=plcp" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0K0EeL0q4Y&list=UUKpBleZ-rxxtsFayC6StR5w&index=1&feature=plcp</a>

1:20 Seconds, Spiderman (me) does an Up-Smash, then jumps into the air and attacks with the Up-B (Snake/Master Chief) It connected... and it was a lvl9 computer with over 100 HP. I know its a bit hard to see (Bad camera at the time) but you can still make out what I said.

I'll give you an example of it working then since you don't believe me...

So I guess we play differently.

Metaknight got banned for more reasons then just being able to Air-Combo his up a air move with his jumps...

And His side be is a good kill move, but that doesn't mean you're going to always kill your opponent with it. Which is why I gave the example of running after their flying body and attempting to do something else to them... yanno... to continue the match instead of waiting for them to hit the ground or come back to the stage. Thats what I call chasing.

And maybe we're not understanding each other on what we think a combo is. What I think a combo is is when you string together attacks in succession. Or possible succession. It wont always work pending the attack, but to be able to pursue your opponent was what I was trying to get across.

After Fox does his up smash... what do you do? Wait for them to hit the ground before you keep going? I would rather go up in the air and try my luck hitting them before they hit the ground... but maybe thats just me.

And in Falco's case, he can DACUS and after that its natural to follow into an Air assault of attacks to continue hitting your opponent. Thing about Scizor's headbut... the end lag makes that almost impossible at lower levels and its not easier when the percentages get up there either.

The up-tilt I found good for juggling. But thats not what I'm talking about.

But hey... Opinions are opinions... and suggestions are suggestions. KJPs gonna do what he's gonna do and I'm keep on usin the moveset cause I like this one more then Falcos.

And as far as the multi-jumps go... Kirby, and DDD can't fly... again, the multi jumps was mainly for the Up-A Air... but currently, the first jump with the up-a air can hit an opponent 2-3 times (if done correctly) if they are directly above you so its fine as is too. But the multi jumps would make it slightly easier and change the dynamic a bit. SHORT jumps... btw... in case I wasn't clear... I was suggesting 3-4 short jumps that would average out to the height of what he does now... if not lower.

[_Data_Drain_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0K0EeL0q4Y&list=UUKpBleZ-rxxtsFayC6StR5w&index=1&feature=plcp

1:20 Seconds, Spiderman (me) does an Up-Smash, then jumps into the air and attacks with the Up-B (Snake/Master Chief) It connected... and it was a lvl9 computer with over 100 HP. I know its a bit hard to see (Bad camera at the time) but you can still make out what I said.

I'll give you an example of it working then since you don't believe me...

So I guess we play differently.
That was a CPU... Again, try that against a player. It will likely not work.

Metaknight got banned for more reasons then just being able to Air-Combo his up a air move with his jumps...
Yes, but you gave an example of Meta Knight as if he was balanced...

And His side be is a good kill move, but that doesn't mean you're going to always kill your opponent with it. Which is why I gave the example of running after their flying body and attempting to do something else to them... yanno... to continue the match instead of waiting for them to hit the ground or come back to the stage. Thats what I call chasing.
But it's still good to save a kill move for killing, since some characters have few kill options. And the best ones to save are the ones that wouldn't be good for low percents.

And maybe we're not understanding each other on what we think a combo is. What I think a combo is is when you string together attacks in succession. Or possible succession. It wont always work pending the attack, but to be able to pursue your opponent was what I was trying to get across.
A combo in most fighting games is consecutive hits that the foe can not get away from. Brawl has few real combos, since most foes can air dodge out of the hit stun, or attack out of it.

After Fox does his up smash... what do you do? Wait for them to hit the ground before you keep going? I would rather go up in the air and try my luck hitting them before they hit the ground... but maybe thats just me.
Or, you can use it as a kill move, and not have to chase them.
And in Falco's case, he can DACUS and after that its natural to follow into an Air assault of attacks to continue hitting your opponent. Thing about Scizor's headbut... the end lag makes that almost impossible at lower levels and its not easier when the percentages get up there either.
Again, different characters have different traits...

The up-tilt I found good for juggling. But thats not what I'm talking about.
That's one of the few kinds of real combos there are in Brawl...

And as far as the multi-jumps go... Kirby, and DDD can't fly... again, the multi jumps was mainly for the Up-A Air... but currently, the first jump with the up-a air can hit an opponent 2-3 times (if done correctly) if they are directly above you so its fine as is too. But the multi jumps would make it slightly easier and change the dynamic a bit. SHORT jumps... btw... in case I wasn't clear... I was suggesting 3-4 short jumps that would average out to the height of what he does now... if not lower.
...Kirby and Dedede can fly actually, in their own games, they have infinite jumps. So yes, they can fly.

So you basically want him to have a broken combo then? Up air up air up air up air up air?

He can already do a little mini combo with it now, up air to neutral air... He does not need the multi jumps.

[Master_Ryuk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0K0EeL0q4Y&list=UUKpBleZ-rxxtsFayC6StR5w&index=1&feature=plcp

1:20 Seconds, Spiderman (me) does an Up-Smash, then jumps into the air and attacks with the Up-B (Snake/Master Chief) It connected... and it was a lvl9 computer with over 100 HP. I know its a bit hard to see (Bad camera at the time) but you can still make out what I said.

I'll give you an example of it working then since you don't believe me...

So I guess we play differently.

Metaknight got banned for more reasons then just being able to Air-Combo his up a air move with his jumps...

And His side be is a good kill move, but that doesn't mean you're going to always kill your opponent with it. Which is why I gave the example of running after their flying body and attempting to do something else to them... yanno... to continue the match instead of waiting for them to hit the ground or come back to the stage. Thats what I call chasing.

And maybe we're not understanding each other on what we think a combo is. What I think a combo is is when you string together attacks in succession. Or possible succession. It wont always work pending the attack, but to be able to pursue your opponent was what I was trying to get across.

After Fox does his up smash... what do you do? Wait for them to hit the ground before you keep going? I would rather go up in the air and try my luck hitting them before they hit the ground... but maybe thats just me.

And in Falco's case, he can DACUS and after that its natural to follow into an Air assault of attacks to continue hitting your opponent. Thing about Scizor's headbut... the end lag makes that almost impossible at lower levels and its not easier when the percentages get up there either.

The up-tilt I found good for juggling. But thats not what I'm talking about.

But hey... Opinions are opinions... and suggestions are suggestions. KJPs gonna do what he's gonna do and I'm keep on usin the moveset cause I like this one more then Falcos.

And as far as the multi-jumps go... Kirby, and DDD can't fly... again, the multi jumps was mainly for the Up-A Air... but currently, the first jump with the up-a air can hit an opponent 2-3 times (if done correctly) if they are directly above you so its fine as is too. But the multi jumps would make it slightly easier and change the dynamic a bit. SHORT jumps... btw... in case I wasn't clear... I was suggesting 3-4 short jumps that would average out to the height of what he does now... if not lower.

What you just want is scizor to be made as you wish.
His playstile is not the one you want/think.
He is designed to be a defensive character and not a rush one like Metaknight/Marth.
So if you dont like the play stile go and try another character more suitable to you, or make your own version of scizor.
BTW, good PSA KJ, but i really think that standing animation should be changed =/