[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[dRage]

I'd honestly prefer if they didn't go beyond the 7 additional characters limit (that's 5 more). We are at 41 and the game must already be a pain to balance at this point. Introducing a new character now means balancing that character around 41 matchups. Which means they need to make sure this new character does not completely dominate any of the existing characters but also does not get completely wrecked by any of them. I'd much rather have them focus on polishing the current roster up and then let the metagame evolve on its own.

Not to mention learning all these matchups in order to be able to compete in tournaments can become a little overwhelming.

[Gamma Ridley]

But having the ability to add characters to our own personal builds would be nice.

[BlueBrain]

But having the ability to add characters to our own personal builds would be nice.

this.

[Zikkh]

Aren't there ways to make BrawlEX or whatever work with P:M already?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBSM8qdCkU
at around 4:00

[AutumnVen]

Aren't there ways to make BrawlEX or whatever work with P:M already?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBSM8qdCkU
at around 4:00

Hey that's my video!

Honestly the codes used for that come close to Project M, but it still can't compare. The original PM plays much smoother than the versions that people have tried to make that are compatible with BrawlEx. I'm not sure why though... even with the same codes. It's just not the same.

[Eternal Yoshi]

OK Time to answer why for real.

The real reason we aren't using BrawlEx is because it is not as stable as our Clone Engine at this point and BrawlEx also has other problems that our Clone Engine does not.

For example, 1 out of 3 times we've tested BrawlEx with PM or in Brawl, Battlefield's My Music gets corrupted and crashes the game when choosing the stage in My Music, even without codes. Even if it can be fixed, it is very irresponsible to include a code/codeset that would damage save data in any way because of how widespread PM is at this point. While you may know how to fix it, most of the players of PM, competitive or otherwise, do not, and having that in there would create the stigma that PM corrupts save data, which is something a mod creator never wants.

Also, there's a 1 in 4 chance that common2.pac/bx_fighter.rel won't load properly when using BrawlEx, causing the game to crash on the strap screen.

Not only that, but our clone engine allows for (Limited space) Kirby Hats and has more flexibility with other codes.

The cost and consequences of using BrawlEx officially in Project M far outweighs the pros of allowing custom rosters that only you guys would know how to fully utilize.

[Segtendo]

Then why not share this "clone engine" of your's if it's much better than BrawlEx's?

[Velen]

Then why not share this "clone engine" of your's if it's much better than BrawlEx's?

We all know what they're going to roll out for that one.

[Eternal Yoshi]

Then why not share this "clone engine" of your's if it's much better than BrawlEx's?

Because it's not nearly as user friendly as BrawlEx. Only 2 users can edit it cleanly without glitches and even that takes a while.

[Velen]

Because it's not nearly as user friendly as BrawlEx. Only 2 users can edit it cleanly without glitches and even that takes a while.

Glad to see a response that short and too the point, and not a bunch of grandstanding nonsense that sounds like something some random corporation would put out in response.

To clarify, I'm not being sarcastic.

[Miacis]

What I wonder is, if only two people in the world can customize that system, is it really that worthwhile to stick with it? You talk about more flexibility with other codes, but from the sounds of how complicated that Engine is to set up, it sounds more like an eldritch horror as far as programming goes.

Wouldn't researching ways to go with BrawlEx and improve from there make for a much safer route? I mean, I'm not saying "drop everything, fix BrawlEx, and have it in the next version of P:M." I'm talking about a longer term goal there.

Right now you have two people to work on it. Not only would the really slow process probably be faster if more people could work on it, but what if one or both leave the team for a variety of reasons? What if they happen to be huge jerks and you really need to kick them out of the team?

[nanobuds]

What I wonder is, if only two people in the world can customize that system, is it really that worthwhile to stick with it? You talk about more flexibility with other codes, but from the sounds of how complicated that Engine is to set up, it sounds more like an eldritch horror as far as programming goes.

Wouldn't researching ways to go from BrawlEx and improve from there make for a much safer route? I mean, I'm not saying "drop everything, fix BrawlEx, and have it in the next version of P:M." I'm talking about a longer term goal there.

Right now you have two people to work on it. Not only would the really slow process probably be faster if more people could work on it, but what if one or both leave the team for a variety of reasons? What if they happen to be incredible jerks and you really need to kick them out of the team?

Our team focuses on Project M, and Project M only. We don't need a bunch of people to work on the clone engine. If we want a slot added to the roster, we ask nicely, and they add it for us.

There is no need for to move to a new engine. The coders who came up with the codes did it because they wanted too. Yeah, it may take up more time, but it is worth it when avoiding the glitches and bugs that BrawlEx has.

If they want to fix BrawlEx, then it would pretty much be the same as our clone engine. Why would they use their time to fix something else, when we have a similar product that works not only the same, but slightly better?

[Velen]

Adding onto that, as I was taught by my second programming instructor (I'm not fluent in coding, just the basic [censored] mind you), if a code isn't user-friendly, it's bad coding design.

Not only that, the fact it takes so long to edit it cleanly also speaks of badly designed code, and make me wonder if the people who coded it will ever go over it and simplify the coding.

To use a metaphor: "Never complete a task in 3 actions when you can do it in 1."

@Nano:

I think you misunderstand the something here. The fact the coding is so cumbersome to edit is a problem. A problem that should be fixed because it would increase your team's productivity and ability to get these updates out faster instead of taking eons upon eons.

Furthermore, having more people who can edit the code would also have the same effect: increasing productivity and allowing you to get things done faster, cause four coders are better than two.

You do need a larger group of people to work on the clone engine, cause the way it sounds, Nano, editing the damn thing by itself is 2 adventures and a half.

You're leaving yourselves tied to anchors for the sake of what, exactly?

[Eternal Yoshi]

Adding onto that, as I was taught by my second programming instructor (I'm not fluent in coding, just the basic [censored] mind you), if a code is cumbersome to edit, and isn't user-friendly, it's bad coding design.

Not only that, the fact it takes so long to edit it cleanly also speaks of badly designed code, and make me wonder if the people who coded it will ever go over it and simplify the coding.

To use a metaphor: "Never complete a task in 3 actions when you can do it in 1."

As of now, the "1 action" in this situation is not as stable as the "3 action". That by itself is a red flag. When the "1 action" becomes stable enough to be a fair comparison, we would take a more serious consideration.

Also most of the CE related work comes from animating and balancing actually. Mewtwo, for example, took months to animate and to look good, and this was before we had the Maya method. Even with the Maya method and touch, it still takes a long time to get it balanced and animated to a level that's up to our standards. This is on top of dealing with other things both PM related and when real life comes into play.

[Miacis]

Didn't you just say that you can't release the CE because it super-complicated and long to set up? .-.
If what is taking time is actually animating and balancing, then I don't see what the big deal is. Anyone can do that without needing to tune everything to PGM Melee standards.

Our team focuses on Project M, and Project M only. [...]

I had gathered as much, but that does not adress what I was talking about. At all.

All I'm asking is whether an investment on perfecting BrawlEx on the long-term wouldn't end up faster, better, AND safer, for the reasons explained further above.