[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Velen]

Spoilered cause reasons.

I have to be honest. I'm disappointed with the attitude that the Top Tier characters of Melee absolutely had to be as they were in Melee for Project M in order for any balancing to be done. I see that as completely non-sequitur to balancing.

All you're basically doing is buffing the rest of the characters with in order to bring them to the level of Melee's Top Tiers potentially. You don't need the Top Tiers to be as they were in Melee in order to do that. The recloning of Ganondorf and Falco in particular are what struck a chord with me on this.

I would've preferred that the re-cloned characters be given new things to make them different from their originals in Melee, but I can already tell that's simply not going to happen. That's called regress, not progress.

Call me a whiner or whatever, but you know I'm right.

-and now I shall flee before SDo0M or someone else comes and replies to this. Lunch time!

[BlueBrain]

wait what?
re-cloning?

any argumentated reason for this weirdness?

[SiLeNtDo0m]

Spoilered cause reasons.

I have to be honest. I'm disappointed with the attitude that the Top Tier characters of Melee absolutely had to be as they were in Melee for Project M in order for any balancing to be done. I see that as completely non-sequitur to balancing.

All you're basically doing is buffing the rest of the characters with in order to bring them to the level of Melee's Top Tiers potentially. You don't need the Top Tiers to be as they were in Melee in order to do that. The recloning of Ganondorf and Falco in particular are what struck a chord with me on this.

I would've preferred that the re-cloned characters be given new things to make them different from their originals in Melee, but I can already tell that's simply not going to happen. That's called regress, not progress.

Call me a whiner or whatever, but you know I'm right.

-and now I shall flee before SDo0M or someone else comes and replies to this. Lunch time!

You know what disappoints me?  The fact that people keep hammering on at this stupid argument and ignore everything else about P:M.  Seriously, we've had this argument HOW MANY [censored]ING TIMES?  It's BORING.  There's so many other things to discuss with this game.  Discuss them.  Continuously whining about one/two characters of whom you don't even play extensively enough over and over in this thread is pointless.  There are literally a million other things you could comment on.

[SwingSet]

You know what disappoints me?  The fact that people keep hammering on at this stupid argument and ignore everything else about P:M.  Seriously, we've had this argument HOW MANY [censored]ING TIMES?  It's BORING.  There's so many other things to discuss with this game.  Discuss them.  Continuously whining about one/two characters of whom you don't even play extensively enough over and over in this thread is pointless.  There are literally a million other things you could comment on.

I strongly agree with this.

[_Data_Drain_]

But it does say something when SO MANY people say the same thing...

Like I said though... The issue should be left alone. Until perhaps CE progress has been made...


THEN you could make versions of Falco, and Ganondorf that differ from the Melee versions... Without getting rid of the Melee clone versions.

As I said before, they could be selected in a manner similar to Zero Suit Samus. Holding R button while selecting them... This would be sorta like some Mugen characters. When you hold start while selecting them, you get an alternate move set.


...But then again. Perhaps this is a terrible idea. Since it would need additional balance...

[nernerman]

I was totally stoked about the new P:M but somehow my Wii and Computer had to crap out on me. As soon as i can get one of them fixed, I will get to playing it. For some reason I wanna play as Ivysaur.

[♤♡◇♧]

But it does say something when SO MANY people say the same thing...

Like I said though... The issue should be left alone. Until perhaps CE progress has been made...


THEN you could make versions of Falco, and Ganondorf that differ from the Melee versions... Without getting rid of the Melee clone versions.

As I said before, they could be selected in a manner similar to Zero Suit Samus. Holding R button while selecting them... This would be sorta like some Mugen characters. When you hold start while selecting them, you get an alternate move set.


...But then again. Perhaps this is a terrible idea. Since it would need additional balance...

It's used by so many because people seem to be blind sighted by this particular fact (which isn't even 100% true), that they tend to ignore EVERYTHING else the game has to offer, and at this point, this whole argument it getting stale and petty.

Also, IF we ever get the clone engine working, we wouldn't really want to waste the limited amount of instance slots on different versions of the same character.

[_Data_Drain_]

Hm... I see...

I keep forgetting that even with it's completion, there will be limited slots (actual ones on the CSS, or just ZSS type of slots)...

[Velen]

I do like some of the things that have been done, such as with Lucario and Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon so far, but that one fact, the fact the top tiers will be exactly as they were in Melee, as well as the recloning of Falco and Ganondorf, bothers me.

At first the reason was because it was being made to play exactly or almost exactly like Melee, but that bias has more or less passed. I'm over that now. I can think more objectively about Project M as opposed to say...a year ago.

I just wish they you guys would declone the characters further, by giving them their Melee stats, but giving the characters (the clones in particular) new things to play with, like new, creative moves that could fit into the play environment, a new special or two, or maybe even a brand new Final Smash?

I just like seeing creativity from people. You guys have been doing plenty of that with other characters, but the lack thereof on Melee's clones that still reside in Brawl disappoints me.

[♤♡◇♧]

Thing is, Ganondorf and Falco have been given all the good attributes they had in both Melee and Brawl, and where one attribute fits better in the overall playstyle or not.
That's the reason why even though a lot of Ganon has been changed to Melee stat wise, things like side B and certain animations have not.
Same goes for Falco, but a lot less has been kept from Brawl due to most of his Melee attributes outweighing his Brawl ones.

[libertyernie]

There should be a separate thread for talking about clones.

[LC-DDM]

Okay so apparently I hurt someone's sensibilities. Let's see if I can rephrase my post to not do so.

You know what disappoints me?  The fact that people keep hammering on at this stupid argument and ignore everything else about P:M.  Seriously, we've had this argument HOW MANY [censored]ING TIMES?  It's BORING.  There's so many other things to discuss with this game.  Discuss them.

Well, there's the whole "failure" thing that plays on a controller that isn't the Gamecube. I'm not sure if that was discussed here or not.

It's used by so many because people seem to be blind sighted by this particular fact (which isn't even 100% true), that they tend to ignore EVERYTHING else the game has to offer, and at this point, this whole argument it getting stale and petty.

You call of us being blindsighted, but you do nothing to respond in value about it. I mean, what? What is there to discuss that, in your eyes, would see relevant? I mean, far from me to imply that only discussions inside the P:M-specific forums can be taken seriously... but that's what it feels like, at times.

Also, IF we ever get the clone engine working, we wouldn't really want to waste the limited amount of instance slots on different versions of the same character.

Soooo... Roy's not making an appearance? Or is he? 'cause, see, this is what I mean. You get clones on P:M - that's fine... as you explained, they're a mix of the best attributes of Melee and Brawl - but where does Roy stand? Do we get Marth with the same treatment Mario had? Do we actually get Roy as a seperate character? Does he even get his own moves or just stay Marth's wingman?

[♤♡◇♧]

Well, there's the whole "failure" thing that plays on a controller that isn't the Gamecube. I'm not sure if that was discussed here or not.

The code has been removed in the 2.5 demo release in case you hadn't noticed already (not sure if you have played 2.5).

You call of us being blindsighted, but you do nothing to respond in value about it. I mean, what? What is there to discuss that, in your eyes, would see relevant? I mean, far from me to imply that only discussions inside the P:M-specific forums can be taken seriously... but that's what it feels like, at times.

It has been discussed to death, and the answer is and will always be the same.
They have been 'recloned' due to balancing, one of the key things driving this mod.

And you could for example discuss why certain stages are in Project M and why some aren't, or the fact that the audio now fades after the game being left idle for more then three minutes.

Soooo... Roy's not making an appearance? Or is he? 'cause, see, this is what I mean. You get clones on P:M - that's fine... as you explained, they're a mix of the best attributes of Melee and Brawl - but where does Roy stand? Do we get Marth with the same treatment Mario had? Do we actually get Roy as a seperate character? Does he even get his own moves or just stay Marth's wingman?

I was more referring to having two Falco's or two Ganon's in the game.
If Roy ever gets in a working state, he'll probably be rebalanced to be more viable.
Whenever or not he gets decloned in the process is something that will happen if necessary for balance sake (which will probably happen on more than one occasion, seeing as Roy wasn't exactly top or high tier material).

[LC-DDM]

The code has been removed in the 2.5 demo release in case you hadn't noticed already (not sure if you have played 2.5).

I can't play it. No PAL release yet.

And before you say "just... get your own copy of US Brawl", it's not as easy as it sounds, and I don't want to betray my region. Personal preference. I mean granted, the people who know me out here know how much I love "Melee", but that doesn't mean I won't try this sooner or later. It's just... I prefer it to be a PAL release, if any. We almost always get the Montreal Screwjob for things.

With that said, I actually thought it was a modification of the smashbros_sound.brsar itself, and not just a code. Since, well, P:M takes heavily from Melee and Melee had japanese voiceovers regardless of region, so...

It has been discussed to death, and the answer is and will always be the same.
They have been 'recloned' due to balancing, one of the key things driving this mod.

And you could for example discuss why certain stages are in Project M and why some aren't, or the fact that the audio now fades after the game being left idle for more then three minutes.

The only thing I only have an issue with is the Castlevania Stage. Not so much the stage itself, but the fact people - most prominent example being IGN - think P:M inserted it into the game when... one could already do that before. I mean, this is more of a to-may-to to-mah-to discussion, but like... I dunno.

Also, the cool new things, the single stock, the stage thing, the fadeout, that's all well and good. That's why I asked earlier in one of my posts here when those will be released for standalone use (and maybe for someone talented to... well, port to PAL because REASONS :B )

I was more referring to having two Falco's or two Ganon's in the game.
If Roy ever gets in a working state, he'll probably be rebalanced to be more viable.
Whenever or not he gets decloned in the process is something that will happen if necessary for balance sake (which will probably happen on more than one occasion, seeing as Roy wasn't exactly top or high tier material).

Yeah, but that's why I asked. I mean Roy was a clone in his way, how would he be handled knowing your previous statement of not wasting slots on different versions of the same character? Keeping in mind that there are people that enjoyed him thoroughly as well?

[Gamma Ridley]

I don't want to betray my region.

Ok, what does that even mean.

No really, what the [censored] does that mean.

Seriously

I just

Really

What.