[Official] Project M discussion: RIP

[Eternal Yoshi]

I really feel that there's a gross misunderstanding here on that whole "what worked in Melee", which kinda surprises me considering you guys have been working on nothing but that for years now. What worked in Melee were its mechanics, the effective and coherent movesets, stuff like that. The things that you've already understood and applied to other fighters. That's what made Falco good, not the fact he's a boring copy-paste of Fox.

You can't just say "well, that worked, so no use fixing what isn't broken", that's just not how game design works. Game design is not finding the optimal setup and then sticking with it, that's Math. It's about finding different optimals every time, which is something that's been done rather successfully on Toon Link, or even Samus. There was no need to add the Ice Beam, for instance. But you did it anyway instead of just, y'know, tweaking a few numbers to balance Samus out and call it a day.

Not to mention, you really can't say Melee Falco "worked" either. He was a generic Fox clone. That's not "working" in my book.

While the animations may be largely identical, Fox and Falco vastly different physics and hitbox settings that make the characters play different enough in competitive play, especially in mid and higher levels while having them both work competitively, effectively making them different characters.

Keep in mind that lots of companies/franchises have been successful by sticking with what worked with minor changes, like most franchises made by Capcom back in the late 80s and 90s, such as the NES Mega Man games.

Changing movesets for the sake of changing them hasn't always worked out well for other franchises like Soul Calibur.

The reason characters like Toon Link and Samus have been changed is because they needed altercations to their toolset to better fit in the PM environment and to be able to compete with the rest of the cast better. There are occasions where simple number tweaks aren't gonna cut it and characters like Toon Link and Samus are a great example. style is a staple of Melee anFalco's Melee moveset already has all that he needs to compete effectively not to mention his Melee d PM, so there is no purpose in changing in what works for Falco.

I've seen that brought forward on the website too, and I still can't help but feel this is incredibly flawed. Putting the same characters in a different situation isn't changing the characters in any way, just as adding new DLC levels doesn't suddenly make a new game, especially if those levels don't bring foward new mechanics.
In a nutshell, it's still the same Fox and Falco and Captain Falcon I'm playing. And in the frequent occurence where you'd have a match with two of the Melee top tiers, lo and behold, it's not a "very new game" anymore at all.
But there's not something for everyone, that's the main problem. You've tuned all the regular characters to be tournament-friendly AND casual-friendly, but completely left out the second part for Melee top tiers. Pragmatically speaking, you're alienating a major part of your audience (target or not, I don't really care) from a decent portion of your cast. That's the exact opposite of "for everyone".

On those characters, you're deliberately taking away things that casual players wanted (variety, personnality), and catering those players to the rest of the cast. In a way, that isn't all that much better than Sakurai did when he catered tournament-players towards playing only Metaknight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy and such.

Actually, even though characters like Fox and Falco are largely the same as Melee, playing them in PM IS a new experience while staying familiar. The mechanics and game around them have changed to the point where it's a different flavor. There are new techniques to use(Footstooling), new and improved characters to fight, and more environments and such that were not present in Melee Their Matchups and such are also very different in PM due to the larger variety of viable characters.

There's definitely things for casuals and the like to appreciate in PM though they aren't always easy to notice. For example, 2 changes that have gone under the radar that were made were:

1. Computer players no longer have a preference for ganging up on the human player in 4 player scenarios
2. Many items/Pokemon/Assist Trophy parameters were adjusted to better suit balance.

While some may disagree, keep in mind that there are players of all walks that felt that items in brawl were far too overpowered and I think the changes I did to them so far suit their wants.

Edit: If you want a Falco in PM that has what you want, I recommend doing it yourselves. You guys definitely have the tools to do so. While we may not support it, we have no problem with you editing Falco's PSA to be what you want and putting it on Brawlvault, as long as we're credited for the original PM Falco assets.

[SiLeNtDo0m]

nope, just short period.

I used other m model and it looked short in p:m so I did a comparison, and it turned out she was shorter. in brawl samus is taller than ike, in p:m she is shorter than ike. brawl model is bulky so it isn't noticeable, nor does it look weird in p:m. use an import over her and it's looks weird because it will be shorter than all or most of the other characters.

Samus is Melee Samus size

[iwantgames]

Samus is Melee Samus size

ok, just wanted to know what happened.

thanks

[HaloedHero]

Also adding that changing that could (censored) off a ton of top tier people that uses fox and falco BECAUSE of their melee predecessors. Believe me, aton of guys at my gaming club love fox/falco the way they are. And I seen alot of pm tourney displaying just how great and technical using those two are. It is best not to fix whats not broken, and just leave that melee influence alone.

And I'm saying this, not because I disagree with you (I want this change to happen), but for all of those annoying competitive guys who spent hours and hours training with characters that are hard to master would probably just stop playing pm altogether.

Besides, there is alot for casual players now.

If I'm reading correctly, Miacis, you're saying this guy's friends, who are happy that we brought back Melee Falco, don't deserve to keep that, because there are people who would like to play something different. Forgive me if I don't think that's as unassailably fair as you do.

I'll put it another way. Say you were in charge of the PMBR, and you decided to change Falco, and a Falco main walked up to you and asked why. The answer would be, "His moves looked too similar to Fox, so we changed him."

Say he responded, "But he played totally different, even though they appear similar. If you think they were too similar, you don't understand the character at all. I actually liked that he and Fox appeared similar but played totally differently, because it made sense to me, since they're on the same team, but they're also rivals. Seeing them use similar fighting styles in their own unique way was really fun for me. Now Falco's just got a bunch of weird stuff that you guys made up that doesn't make any sense, and we've completely lost that unique connection between the two characters."

Would you completely ignore his opinion that it's OK for Fox and Falco to be similar and that it's not inherently lazy or boring?

The problem is that you're not wrong, but we're not wrong either, so there's not really a lot I can say beyond my initial response. If you choose to disagree with it, that's fine, but no matter what you say, there's no right or wrong answer here. There is no "this is good game design" and "this is bad game design" no matter how many people try to reduce it to those terms.

Basically, you're choosing to see our decisions as "mistakes," whereas I've tried to point out that they're not perfect, but that there is no perfect answer.

[Zikkh]

Question to all the P:M developers, is there a list somewhere that tells me what songs I have to replace for the new stages? I wanna add some songs to Skyloft.

[Bad Box Art Mega Man]

Question to all the P:M developers, is there a list somewhere that tells me what songs I have to replace for the new stages? I wanna add some songs to Skyloft.

actually, skyloft is over hanenbow, a stage with only one song.

[Ninka_kiwi]

As for all the Falco recloning talk, I just want to point out one major detail...

Project M was literally made from the sole attempt at making Falco play like Melee. after making him play like melee, other characters were adjusted, and thus we have PM how it is today.

While it shows, I know I have a friend that mains Falco in Melee but can't stand him in PM, I haven't the slightest why, but he still feels different enough.

Overall I guess the idea is that Falco in a melee setting is already near perfection, and needs no edits, similar to that of say Marth, while the likes of Link and Samus suck in a melee setting and thus need to be edited, thus, viability has a big impact on moveset changes.

[Zikkh]

actually, skyloft is over hanenbow, a stage with only one song.

Only one song? Alright, as long as I can replace it I'm fine. Thank you.

[Velen]

@Haloed: Whenever I tried to argue the whole Falco De-Cloning issue. What I actually wanted was to see Falco's gameplay change in a way that makes him fundamentally different from Fox, beyond animations differences, physics differences, and a difference in numbers for their programming in their attacks. It doesn't matter how much you put a spin on it, the fact will always remain that he plays and looks too much like Fox.

I wanted Falco to become a character whose focus is based one the phrase you hear when he calls the Landmaster: "Personally, I prefer the air!". I wanted his moveset to reflect that statement. More emphasis on juggling, off-stage and on-stage aerial combos, and an ability to stay airborne for a decent amount of time rather than having him fall like a rock physics-wise. Having most of his ground-based attack and throws make his opponent airborne, and having cancels and new moves that facilitate a superior aerial combo game than his Melee incarnation, and maybe replacing a Special or two to compliment such a moveset. You don't have to take away absolutely everything he has to achieve that.

I've kinda stopped caring about it though. Not much point in arguing with those who won't acknowledge any amount of merit to the idea.

[HaloedHero]

It doesn't matter how much you put a spin on it, the fact will always remain that he plays and looks too much like Fox.

That is entirely an opinion, no matter how much you try to spin it as a fact.

[Velen]

That is entirely an opinion, no matter how much you try to spin it as a fact.

Wrong. It is fact, and the evidence is plain to see for anyone who cares to be observant.

[BlackJax96]

Wrong. It is fact, and the evidence is plain to see for anyone who cares to be observant.

You thinking it's a fact is just your opinion.

[Segtendo]

Fact ≠ Opinion. Learn that, and life will be so much easier.

[HaloedHero]

Also, it seems that no matter how careful I am to point out that there are differing opinions on the subject and neither is wrong, I still have to listen to people accuse me of thinking there's no merit in the other side's idea, even though I JUST SAID there was nothing wrong with it in my last post and that it just didn't happen to be the way we went.

You can paint me as some kind of elitist monster all you want. I've acknowledged that your opinion has merit. Meanwhile, you continue to tell me that it's a fact that our opinion is wrong.

Who's the one who won't acknowledge the validity of the opposing opinion again?

[Nezha B. Rose]

Enough... just leave Falco the way he is. There is no rule that says that there can be no clones. Why does he has to be an aerialist? why does he need to be decloned? would project m team risk in actually mess up a a completely usable character?

No, one cannot be onesided, you must think on both sides in order to make an argument with no flaws. We have this whole casual vs competitive debate here for what exactly? Just so one character can be changed? Really? And the rest? You cannot strip what Falcon users grew to know and love, and I personally know of 20... not one... not two... 20 people in our club that uses Falco and actually DISLIKES fox because he is different. I am one of the two guys that bring project m to that club and I would not like to see the disappointing looks of those people. And it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter how do you approach brawl. NO game can be perfect, no game can satisfy anybody, no matter how perfect or well designed it is.

I am a casual player, and guess what? I want Falco unchanged you know why? I main him for tournaments. Believe me, I would like if he flapped his wings and flied or dance the gangman style for lols, but... guess what? In the end I won't longer be using him for the tournaments.

Besides, there is more topics that needs to be discussed about balancing the already existing cast than breaking an balanced character and it is best that this topic would be changed before shots are fired.

And this is just, my opinion.