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Segtendo
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    « Reply #120 on: March 23, 2015, 09:01:55 PM »


    I feel like some people don't take criticism to part. They take it as offensive and get all pissy. It happened in a thread that I will not mention because it ended up in flames.

    KJP actually created a thread recently on how to properly critique things.
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    « Reply #121 on: March 24, 2015, 04:22:05 AM »


    KJP stole my post, but I want to break yours down into parts and give my own examples/thoughts

    I look at where you are at currently, and I see myself when I first started out. I had ambitions (pretty much my whole thread lol). But as time went on, I knew that there were some things I couldn't achieve. Whether it was limitations at the time, it being impossible or even if I just didn't have the time. Something stopped me. And you know what? I'm happy that they did. Looking back at my Roy and Hector PSAs, I'm appalled that people (including myself) actually liked them.

    I've downloaded your Cloud and your HW Link PSA just to give them a shot, to give you the benefit of the doubt. I can't say I'm disappointed in the quality of your work, but I'm disappointed that you didn't ask for critique or help.

    Critique from others is the only way you'll get better.

    Help will widen your understanding of what you're doing and will help you learn even faster (who'd have thought?)

    Back when I started out, I was a complete noob. Yeah, I knew how to PSA (I got a lot of help from Tormod and occasionally from ABC) but I couldn't animate to save my life. So I started making a few things and when I started to gather more steam (started making more animations), I started to put them up on my thread. At first, I thrived on praise and people saying "Wow, it's X character! So cool!" , but as time went on I saw that I wasn't improving. I wasn't getting to what Tormod or DivineOverlord or SilentDoom were doing (it should come as no surprise at this point that I have a man-crush on Tormod).

    So after "tricking" KJP to post on my thread (not really tricking, but he had one idea which was incorrect and I took it lol), I became quick friends with him and abused that fact to get critique on my animations. And what do you know? My animations improved. A lot. Hell, I'll even put up comparison pictures:

    BEFORE (There's 4)








    AFTER (There's 5)











    And after everything I've seen, done, and worked on, I am damn proud of the stuff I make now when I compare it to what I did in the past.

    Completely disregarding critique won't lead you anywhere. At all.
    Yes, receiving harsh critique all of the time sucks. But it should help motivate you to do better.
    Not asking for help will not get you anywhere either. Reaching out for help is the best way to get better.

    To top it off, you're publishing your work on a public website for the world (well, some of it) to download and try out. You'll never be free from critique, so you might as well use it to your advantage.

    I reached out to you in a PM because I know what it feels like to have a bunch of ideas and want to pump them out. But the way you're going about it won't help you improve. Putting out (excuse my language) half-assed or incomplete stuff won't help you improve.


    Alright, you convinced me, at least give some critique to the Palutena PSA I made:

    forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207880
    « Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 05:42:27 PM by LinkFX リンク » Logged

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    « Reply #122 on: March 24, 2015, 05:11:08 AM »


    The problem with critique is people want other people first hacks to be as good as they hacks, they are making for years,i remenber a new user did a little mac psa and the animations were crude and the psa wasnt the best but it was his first hack, i replyed looking good for a first hack, but lot of kcmm veterans i wont name just said awful animations, you need to restart all over, how do you think a new user who did his best for a first hack reacted?of course they quit and fell unhappy, i saw this several times on the importing thread also, people trying their first import and get nothing but bad critique.

    People here just fell every new user must produce hacks on their level,a person needs to improve itself starting low you can expect his first hack to be amazing but if you push them down they will just give up which happened to lots of cases i remenber with new users.
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    « Reply #123 on: March 24, 2015, 07:43:24 AM »


    Im never satisfied with what I do, and once I receive a complaint from one of my mods, I immediately try to fix it no matter how old the mod is.

    Because if there is a way to make the stuff I make better, Im sure as hell Im gonna take it.

    Like what happened once in Smash 3, I had to retexture ROB from scratch twice (retexture=blank canvas, white and undetailed) I had to sketch in every nuts and bolt, shadows and dents, with no shortcuts or tricks. I made him pixel by pixel to make him better. And turns out that in the end, I made something that gave ROB the quality seal these charming veterans wanna distribute.

    I learned how to photoshop HD textures, which helped me filling in blank spots on some other designs I made IRL.

    I used to only made background swaps (some of the lesser skill required stage making), but then LC said something about "All being the same stage with the same colors" or something like that, I was pissed and I wanted to prove him wrong. So I started making custom stages just to prove a point that I could do something else with these PM stages. And because of that, I'm actually learning to use 3DS max which is something I never seen myself doing. And in the end leaving my comfort zone to do other better things.

    And from simple stuff like these:
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=33672
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=34013

    To these:
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207550
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207173

    Unlike how I used to be, I wanna be criticized in order to just make something good (or bad) better!

    Of course, in the end is your choice whenever you take criticism or not, but be certain that you are ignoring an advantage.

    I used to be like you, not accepting things and only wanting to do the things each of you are comfortable in, but frankly...accepting criticism may prove that you indeed care of what you do. And who knows? Maybe the one criticizing may help you hands on.


    My English sucks today.
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    « Reply #124 on: March 24, 2015, 07:56:10 AM »


    Never said criticism is bad, just mean ppl need to take in account the person experience.

    If its a new user making his first hacks you should that that in account, you can expect a new user to make the same content as someone who has been modding for years, when ssb4 was announced we got alot of new users with desires to make ssb hacks for brawl and everyone of those got very harsh critiques for their first animations.

    They were using the first steps we all did in the past like modifing existing animations and such, they were all very new to the scene but they never had any help from the veterans instead they got very bad harsh critiques for their first project.

    Its like review a kids drawing and an artist painting you cant use the same standards for both and people were using the standards from vetarans and wanted amazing animation and codding wich were impossible for the kids, if you keep saying to the kid their job sucks and needs lots of work and its bad they will never become an artist becuase they will give up due to negativity from the beggining.

    I like to critizice when i see a user doing an inferior work than what i know they can do, but this guys had no previous work and yet people were expecting top notch quality.
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    « Reply #125 on: March 24, 2015, 10:58:15 AM »


    And then there are also people with no experience whatsoever documenting whether or not something's "easy". Which also can tick a lot of people off.(Including, but not limited to, me)

    After all, you don't see me going around saying "That import sucks" or "That PSA took no skill whatsoever". Sometimes, people think that rudeness is the proper way to criticize, when it's not. People can easily critique things by analyzing what the problems with it are, but without saying what the problems are(And having no experience in something either also kinda makes it hard to believe that their critiques are right), you kinda can't take a word of what they say as correct, because how do you know that they're correct in their assumptions? Unless the person shows how the mod is bad, or shows somehow that he has experience in the field, I'm not entirely sure that they're critiques really are worth it, and lots of people here probably feel that way. And when a bunch of people here act like this, of not showing that they know what they're talking about, that's probably the main reason that people get scared of showing their work, because it'll just be called "bad" with no explanation. We need to focus more on analytical criticism, and less on subjective criticism.
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    « Reply #126 on: March 24, 2015, 12:09:12 PM »


    but lot of kcmm veterans i wont name just said awful animations, you need to restart all over, how do you think a new user who did his best for a first hack reacted?

    After all, you don't see me going around saying "That import sucks" or "That PSA took no skill whatsoever".criticism.

    I would LOVE to know an example of when someone actually did that here. Links to specific posts.
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    « Reply #127 on: March 24, 2015, 12:37:03 PM »


    I would LOVE to know an example of when someone actually did that here. Links to specific posts.


    Well i can show you but i hope i wont get in trouble for this...
    http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=46179.msg1300122#msg1300122
    You need to do so much more work.

    Everything about this PSA looks rushed and poorly done. Random enlargement, obvious use of Captain Falcon's animations, obvious use of the Little Mac Assist Trophy animations (I would be okay with this if you managed to properly adjust it to fit your character's bones and transition back into Wait1), obvious use of Marth's animations, poor custom animations, kicking (Boxers do not kick!), poor recolor work, and poor PSA coding. Not to also mention the potato quality.

    Unless your computer is weak, get Dolphin Emulator and a Brawl ISO.

    No offense to kjp but the entire post is just to kill the newbie psa, he had just joined and was using modified animations like we all did on the start, but he got a very harsh critique, basicaly saying everything is wrong, this isnt the right way to encourage a newbie in to the community, it was his first work he was probably still exploring psa and brawlbox, heck his first psa was better than my first psa by far and if i had that criticism when i was starting i would have probably had gave up everything altogether.
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    Segtendo
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    « Reply #128 on: March 24, 2015, 12:43:01 PM »


    He's doing it to help the guy, not to be mean. Criticism is when you publicly address what's wrong with something. He isn't saying "it sux get on my level" or whatever. He's helping. You criticize someone to help them become better.

    Everyone's first hack isn't going to be the prettiest piece of art. However with some criticism, you can help someone better themselves. A big part of working with graphics is the fact that you might need criticism from your peers. I work with it a lot, as I am working on becoming a graphic designer. We need to do critiques to help each other out with what you like and what you don't like.
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    « Reply #129 on: March 24, 2015, 12:50:29 PM »


    He's doing it to help the guy, not to be mean. Criticism is when you publicly address what's wrong with something. He isn't saying "it sux get on my level" or whatever. He's helping. You criticize someone to help them become better.

    Everyone's first hack isn't going to be the prettiest piece of art. However with some criticism, you can help someone better themselves. A big part of working with graphics is the fact that you might need criticism from your peers. I work with it a lot, as I am working on becoming a graphic designer. We need to do critiques to help each other out with what you like and what you don't like.
    Most of the post was just saying poor this, poor that, was it poor work? Of course it was but people need to set there bars accordingly to whoever they are seeing, it was very poor work for a veteran but a decent work for a newbie first time messing with psa imo.

    The entire tone of the post wasnt to help but to say it was a bad psa overall, the only constructive criticism was the wait1 bone stuff, the rest of the stuff isnt constructive, saying poor animation, poor psa codding and such doesnt strike me as an help tool,newbies first always start with porting animations and experimenting, i know my first psas had alot of animation porting and size changing becuase thats how things go, one needs to crawl before walking.

    « Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 12:52:08 PM by Carnage » Logged


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    « Reply #130 on: March 24, 2015, 12:58:31 PM »


    -snip
    If you thought that was mean, you have no idea of other things people have said.

    The first example that comes to mind is FNBV. While I like FNBV, their critique is much more harsh than mine would ever be. (But you should take note that the posts on FNBV are almost always unedited.)

    And people need to understand that harsh criticism (or any criticism in general) =/= (does not equal) hating. If I were hating on it, I would have flat out called it trash without elaborating about what I thought made it bad.

    But even so, my post you linked isn't a a very good example of harsh criticism. Quite a few of you would be able to tell if I were to harshly criticize something. But I want to avoid that, as I'm aiming to work on not being so mean.

    That's another issue with the Brawl Modding community. People are just too sensitive sometimes.

    -snip2
    I never at once flat out said it was bad. I was pointing out the exact things I found wrong with the preview. Stop making [censored] up to make me look bad.
    « Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 02:01:01 PM by KingJigglypuff » Logged

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    « Reply #131 on: March 24, 2015, 01:08:02 PM »


    I think you need a good fundamental understanding of design if you wanna make some good mods. Try your best to understand how the original artists created, well, whatever it is you're creating. With this, you'd also want a pretty good understanding of painting, as you'll be painting quite a bit.

     You can also get fancy with zBrush and sculpt high poly models for things like clothes and intricate armour. You'd use these models to "bake" it's lighting into your low poly model. This makes texturing a breeze, relative to hand painting anyway (unless you're Pik)

    Go check out Arrimus 3D. He has hundreds of tutorial videos on YT that are very applicable to Brawl modding.

    As for why I think the community is [censored]? Well, multiple reasons. One, Smash 4 came out (which will be amazing when back-porting is finished), and two, no one takes criticism seriously. Honestly, I've critiqued quite a few members in WIP Workshop and largely have been ignored. I know I'm not particularly active in the community when compared to others, but I have been lurking since the beginning of Brawl hacking; I know a thing or two despite not having anything to show for it.

    Some times people can be mean about their critique. When I was younger, I made really [censored]ty guns in CS. Like, combining random things and uploading them. You can actually still find them on gamebanana. Anyway, criticism was really harsh on that site back then. CS: Source had just come out and 1.6 was slowly dying, though it still had players, and dedicated modders making very crisp, beautiful models. I wanted to join, but I knew basically nothing, and just fiddled around in Milkshape, attaching things in different places and seeing what it looked like. If I thought it looked okay, I'd release it.

    Problem was, people were relentless with their critique. Some were nice about it, but others were pretty terrible. All of my bad skins are gone now (just checked) but there was one guy who told me to dunk my eyes in acid if I thought my skin looked good. Honestly, that's when I called it quits on CS modding. Granted, he did have a point because my model was absolutely terrible. His error, however, was not taking the time to actually correct me. He was one of the creators of one of the models I had used, and thus had a great opportunity to teach a random noob. Instead, he flamed me hard.

    But, on the other hand, I took good criticism seriously, as it's your best learning tool. So long as you seek out the proper information and apply it correctly, you'll get better. Be it modelling, texturing, animating, what have you.

    Tldr, always seek out criticism, whether it's light or harsh.
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    « Reply #132 on: March 24, 2015, 01:23:06 PM »


    If you thought that was mean, you have no idea of other things people have said.

    The first example that comes to mind is FNBV. While I like FNBV, their critique is much more harsh than mine would ever be.

    And people need to understand that harsh criticism (or any criticism in general) =/= (does not equal) hating. If I were hating on it, I would have flat out called it trash without elaborating about what I thought made it bad.

    But even so, my post you linked isn't a a very good example of harsh criticism. Quite a few of you would be able to tell if I were to harshly criticize something. But I want to avoid that, as I'm aiming to work on not being so mean.

    That's another issue with the Brawl Modding community. People are just too sensitive sometimes.
    I never at once flat out said it was bad. I was pointing out the exact things I found wrong with the preview. Stop making [censored] up to make me look bad.
    I linked that one becuase i remenber where to find it, it was nothing personal tbh.

    Like i said, for me it was a very harsh critique for a noob first try messing with  psa.

    its like if i saw a noob model importer that had just joined and said

    Poor model,poor texture,poor rig and poor lightning effect.

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    « Reply #133 on: March 24, 2015, 01:32:23 PM »


    But Carnage. You have the constructive criticism badge. SURELY you must know what proper critiquing is.
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    « Reply #134 on: March 24, 2015, 01:39:47 PM »


    Quote
    Everything about this PSA looks rushed and poorly done. Random enlargement, obvious use of Captain Falcon's animations, obvious use of the Little Mac Assist Trophy animations (I would be okay with this if you managed to properly adjust it to fit your character's bones and transition back into Wait1), obvious use of Marth's animations, poor custom animations, kicking (Boxers do not kick!), poor recolor work, and poor PSA coding. Not to also mention the potato quality.

    Parts of that are proper criticism, where you actually explain the problems(For example, "obvious user of Marth's animations" or "Random enlargement"), but there are also parts that just cause feuding between the criticizer and criticizee(i.e. "poor recolor work", "poor PSA coding", etc., where it doesn't say what the problem is)

    Remember, we can always get better at analyzing problems, maybe even offering fixes, or even implied fixes, which helps the community feel like the criticism actually helps. I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone else at critiquing; we ALL need to get better at being more analytical and fixing problems, as opposed to just saying "they're bad".(As analyzing the problems helps the user to understand how to fix the problem)

    If you thought that was mean, you have no idea of other things people have said.
    ...
    That's another issue with the Brawl Modding community. People are just too sensitive sometimes.

    Just like the joke "You look like heck!" "You should see the other guy", but that doesn't change that the person still looks like crap. It just means that the other guy looks worse, but it doesn't change that you still look aweful; likewise, saying "That was mean!" and "You should see the other guy's meanness", that's the exact same type of dialog, just worded slightly differently.

    And sometimes, it's good to be sensitive; if you're sensitive, then you'll know how to treat people more like people and less like someone to just argue against.

    But Carnage. You have the constructive criticism badge. SURELY you must know what proper critiquing is.

    Exactly his point. The fact that he knows what proper critiquing is, that it's about documenting what the problem is, so that the problems can actually get fixed, and to encourage people that just because they're first model or anything like that may not be good, it doesn't mean that they can't get better at it, maybe even mastering it. For example, I originally used the paint bucket tool to recolor snapshots I took from Freddi Fish, and I even painted the same color on the shadows, making the characters not have shadows! Everyone starts as a noob at everything, even the masters. Even famous inventors, like Alexander Graham Bell, screwed up many times before being successfull finally. I think what Carnage is getting at is that the true definition of critiquing is not to mention something as poor work, but to mention the flaws, fixes to the flaws, and how to improve and practice. That's what it truly means to critique something.
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